Incandescent Bulb Ban -- Motion Detector Fixtures, Poto cell fixtures and other exotic applications

[jJim McLaughlin]

AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within some period of years will effectively ban the manufacture / sale within the US of the traditional incandescent light bulb, requiring replacment with various "flavors" of fluorescents or diode or other bulbs.

In that regard, I have had a few questions come up in my mind based on experiences I have had wih non incandescent bulbs. I am seeking your opinons on (and specific brand / model #s of) possible replacement non incandescent bulbs in the following applicaions:

1. Outdoor Motion Detector Fixtures.

A. I have six (6) of these in various locations around my house. Five are for pairs of the standard "flood light" type incandescent bulbs. They all work fine with incandescent bulbs. Not a single one will work at all when I replace the incandescent bulbs with outdoor fluorescent bulbs. What fluorescents or other non incandecents will actually work in this type of fixture?

Note: All grounds are "good" on all 5 fixtures. "Hots" are wired to hot inside boxes, and neutrals are wired to neutral in all boxes.

B. I have one motion detector fixture in a sheltered covered walkway which uses a pair of the very small quartz / halogen bulbs. What fluorescents or other non incandecents will actually work in this type of fixture?

1. Outdoor Photocell Fixture. I have one outdoor photocell fixture which uses a pair of the standard outdoor incandescent flood lights. When I replace the pair of incandescent floods with outdoor fluorescents the fixture will not function.

Again, in this fixture, the ground is "good" and the "hot" is wired to hot inside the box, and neutral is wired to neutral in the box.

What fluorescents or other non incandecents will actually work in this type of fixture?

1. Appliance bulbs. While I have not yet tried to replace any of these, there are incandescent bulbs in the big upright freezer; the freezer part of the side by side refrgerator; the refrigerator itself; the electric oven, and the microwave.

While these are all very brief intermittant use applicaions and not really the kind of application consuming a lot of power, I don't see an exemption in the legislation for these types of incandescent bulbs.

Has anyone already seen a non incandescent bulb for appliance applications?

Over the last 10 years or so I have replaced every incandescent bulb in the house with a fluorescent bulb. My KWH cosumption has gone down a lot, but the constant rate increases by Portland General Electric (PGE) have wiped out any actual dollar savings on my monthly bill or the reduced KWH consumption for

I am not interested in your opinions as to whether banning incandescet bulbs is or is not good public policy. I'm just trying to get info on what bulbs work in specific locations / applicatons / fixtures.

Thank you.

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi Jim,

Not to worry, you won't be left in the dark. Halogen lamps and a new, forthcoming generation of high-efficiency incandescent (HEI) lamps are direct, one-to-one, replacements for conventional, general service incandescents.

For more information on GE's HEI announcement, see:

Also, to be clear, incandescent lamps will not be "banned" as such; rather, the least efficient ones will be removed for the marketplace, similar to what took place with past legislation (e.g., EPAct, 1992). Congress is proposing that the ones we use today be 25 to 30 per cent more efficient by 2012 (100-watt lamps by 2012, 60-watt by 2013 and

40-watt by 2014).

Philips has a line of products that already meet this new standard; e.g., their 70-watt Halogená Energy Saver produces the same amount of light as a regular 100-watt bulb and lasts up to four times longer (3,000 hours versus 750).

See:

and

AIUI, Congress in its infinite wisdom has enacted something which within

[Wayne Boatwright]

On Fri 18 Jan 2008 09:44:01a, jJim McLaughlin told us...

I've basically done what you've done in replacing all possible incandescent bulbs with comparable output CFLs. In my case, though, there are instances where the bulbs themselves are part of the decorative feature of the fixture and I refuse to replace them with an unattractive CFL of any ilk. What I've done is stockpile replacements that will probably outlast me. :-)

I'm sure that going forward there will be fixture of a type comparable to what you have that will work with CFLs. In the meantine, I would highly recommend stashing as many incandescent and halogen bulbs away as you think you'll need until that time comes.

I don't see any other realistic alternatives.,

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Hi Wayne,

The provisions related to incandescent lamps within the "Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 (HR6)" are limited to "general service" only -- basically your standard A19 household lamp. "General service" is defined as:

1) having a medium (E27) screw-base; 2) a light output of between 310 and 2600 lumens; 3) an operating voltage of between 110 and130V; and 4) a standard or "modified" light spectrum (e.g.., GE's "Reveal").

Incandescent lamps that are explicitly EXCLUDED from this regulation include the following:

appliance black light bug coloured infrared left-hand thread (used where lamps may be stolen) marine / marine signal mine service plant light reflector rough service / shatter-resistant / vibration service sign silver bowl showcase 3-way traffic signal G & T shape AB, BA, CA, F, G16-1/2, G-25, G30, S and M-14

When these regulations are phased-in starting in 2012, general service lamps that produce approximately the same amount of light as a traditional 100-watt incandescent will use no more than 72-watts; a lamp with the output of a 75-watt incandescent will be capped at

53-watts, a 60-watt bulb at 43-watts and a 40-watt bulb at 29-watts.

As mentioned in my previous post, Philips currently sells general service lamps that meet this new standard, and within the next few years, GE expects to have lamps that will be four times more efficient than the ones they sell now.

Cheers, Paul

[tnom]

I don't understand why they wouldn't work unless it's just to cold for the florescent's to start up.

[terry]

Question: Is it because the sensor that detects, motion and/or whether it is daytime or night requires a certain (although small) amount of current flow through the lamps to operate correctly while waiting to turn on the lamps? Not seeing the resistance of the bulb which when the regular incandescents are cold and not lit, is probably less than 100 ohms each (two 100 watt bulbs in paralell =3D 50 ohms!) maybe the unit will not work correctly.

In other words CFLs may be different and are incomptible?

I have to agree with the OP, regulations should not be made that will cause problesm with existing hardware.

Personally we find that in our cool climate, where every month of the year requires some home heating (ours is electric) especially in the evenings when the lights are most likely to be on, that regualr incandescents provide a small portion of the home heat required!

For example; much of the year our bathroom is heated mainly by the six

40 watt bulbs above the vanity mirror; each bulb costing about 25 cents. So that the 500 watt electric heater in that room rarely comes on! Another advantage is that the lights tend to be turned off when bathroom unoccupied, automatically saving electricity.

Since incandescents are so cheap it looks like we will lay in a stock of a couple of hundred 40s, 60s and 100s, for a cost of about $50, when the time comes. That should last about twenty years! And any extra electricity used will be offset by using less (electricity) for heating.

Using CFLs outside does make sense; any 'wasted' heat out there merely heats the night air! But so far our experience with fairly cheap CFLs in temperatures down to about minus 10 C has not been too good. My neighbour has used them but I notice he retains one or two incandescents near his front door; maybe doesn't want to get sued if someone stumbles?

This CFL business is a good ide perhaps for an instance saving/ reduction in electcity consumption in some cases but not everyone should be jumping on the bandwagon without understanding the number.

BTW just drove into this small Arabian Gulf capital city at night, over 50 miles of highway, light traffic, brightly lit with double lamp standard every couple of hundred feet. All electricity here generated by burning fossil fuel; hell they pump it and refine it! Gasoline at the pumps here is 23 cents per litre, about one dollar per US gallon. Hundreds of miles of highways and roads with street lamps burning all night, around the world; much of the electrcity generated by oil, coal, etc. Why?????

Take a look at that 'The world at night' satellite picture to see how much light-pollution we humans are wasting. |

[Mike Dobony]

Explain the difference.

[Paul M. Eldridge]

>

Sorry, Mike, I'm not sure I understand your question. The difference between an incandescent/halogen lamp that provides "X" number of lumens per watt versus one that provides 25 to 30 per cent more?

Cheers, Paul

[ransley]

house. =A0Five

vered walkway

scent bulb in the

I use cfl floods in motion sensors, they all light so It is likely your units design, I use X10 units. At 20f they take 2 minutes to get full bright. 10f 3 minutes, 0 f, 5-6 mintues so they wont scare anyone any you wont want it in your frige. They will get better but for now in cold they take a long time to brighten. Popular mechanics magazine did a review-test. In 4 years Leds might be alot better.

[jJim McLaughlin]

I'm confused Terry.

Your E mail addy tells me ou are in canada.

I'm not sure how the US legislation will impact you.

Surelythe folks in Ottowa are not followig tose in DC?

[Clot]

I don't think they will.

I've used two CFLs (11 watts) outside for years with no problem to ease access for visitors and constant dusk to dawn illumination of our cars in the drive to deter possible thefts.

On the Right side of The Pond, our gas costs $2.10 per UK gallon!

[Clot]

Probably. Here in the EU we are proposing to do similar to similar timescales!

[Clot]

AArrgg! Just realised I missed a bit out on the calc. $9.50 per UK gallon - I'd forgotten to convert litres to gallons!

[tnom]

No. As far as I know the two circuits are not tied together this way.

[Jim Yanik]

terry wrote in news:b2237dfa-00c9-4c1e-a2d4- [e-mail]:

A very tiny portion,negligible.I doubt you could measure it.

Not really. it's probably heated mainly by warm air from other parts of the house. Particularly since you say the lights are OFF when the room is vacant.

Does your bathroom have it's own thermostat?

Nonsense.

snip for brevity

Sounds about standard,and how much traffic is on the roads doesn't matter WRT the lighting of the roads at night.Road lighting is on at night regardless of how much traffic.

Well,they source their own oil,there's no shipping,and they own their refineries. No taxes on it,either. And they may generate their electric power from their refineries 'waste' gasses that have to be burned off.Or from heavy oil products unprofitable for shiping elsewhere.

They earn enough on petro exports to GIVE their citizens a stipend. (just like Alaska does for it's citizens,BTW)

[tnom]

After doing a little research I believe you are correct. The motion detectors use a triac as the switch and the filament is part of the circuit.

[Jim Yanik]

[e-mail] wrote in news: [e-mail]:

How can there be a current flow through the lamp if it's not turned on? WHY would there be a current flow for an OFF lamp?

every fluorescent is going to have some "resistance"(impedance) anyways. the electronic "ballasts" used today have an impedance.

[thekid2]

Thats when I plan to install all 1500W incandescent light bulbs

[Chip C]

I won't claim to understand it, but many motion detectors and timers say "not for florescent" or "for incandescent lamps only" on them. Some don't.

Chip C Toronto

[Don Klipstein]

Fluorescents suffer wear from starting (unless they are the less efficient, less common cold cathode type).

Compact fluorescents often start dim and take time to warm up.

Compact fluorescents not rated for use with dimmers can malfunction when used with electronic switching devices not rated for fluorescents.

I do not recommend CFLs for motion sensor lights. Thankfully, as Paul Eldridge noted, reflector incandescents are not affected by the upcoming ban.

- Don Klipstein ( [e-mail])