If it's level and plumb, it must be square, right?

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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:50:52 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

Measure twice and cut once.
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:29:09 -0500, Metspitzer wrote:

Measure six times, get different answers each time, cut randomly, make good with expanding foam...
;-)
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wrote:

Measure with a micrometer
Mark with chalk
Cut with an Ax
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: Why do we check for square? : : Let's say I'm installing a window. I put the window in the rough : opening, shim it up and grab my level. : : It's plumb on both sides, and the top and bottom are level. : : How could it *not* be square? : : For it to be out of square, at least 1 of the 4 readings I took with : my level would be off. : : If the window were racked, then the sides wouldn't be plumb. : : If one side was longer than the other, then the top wouldn't be level. : : If the bottom was longer than the top, then one of the sides wouldn't : be plumb. : : I can't think of a scenario where both sides are plumb and the top and : bottom are level but the window isn't square. : : What's the point in checking for square?
You don't wear a belt with your suspenders?
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:40:13 -0600, "F. Ghasted"

Try these transom windows for install. (get them level across four windows).
pic:
http://www.ownerbuilderbook.com/images/journal/full/7623.jpg
No suspenders needed.
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Level the bottom windows, then just use a spacer block - no big deal. Or use a Robolaser. I love the remote. Spinning lights make me snap out like in The Andromeda Strain. ;)
R
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:39:47 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

I was thinking a non-fancy method.
Will your "spacer" work for framing mistakes in the transom ROs?
Me! A ladder and a level, measuring tape and set the first window. Then move on.
Note in the pic the first window set was on the right.
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A water level also works well.

Sure, why not? The RO is larger than the window so there is some play.

With a rotating laser you can mark level on the wall before you install the window. Wouldn't matter the order the windows were set.
A water level works around corners.
R
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:24:37 -0800 (PST), RicodJour

I follow what you say. On some occasions I sat the window back on the ground.
What's wrong?!! The dang RO is to small.
Bring back the framer :-)
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Your tape measure is alot more accurate than your bubble level.
Wayne
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A square doesn't have any degree of error. With a level, you can get the bubble close, but to get it perfect and end up with a perfect 90 is not common. In any engineering problem, take it to the extreme. What if you were to lay our four lines, two one hundred feet long, and two two hundred feet long, using only level and plumb. I bet it would be inches off at the diagonal. And even if you do use a square, the diagonal is going to be the only mathematically exact correct thing. Your square can be bent, but not visibly.
Unless, you use a welder's square, then all bets are off.
Steve
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I was going to say "because a $10 square is probably more accurate than a $100 level"...
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On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:20:03 -0800 (PST), Larry Fishel

What happens, if we say a carpenter's square is not square? (can be fixed, btw)
There is a way to check levels for level.
I forget....
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DerbyDad03 wrote:

If the sides are not consistent with the wall, that is, one side is indented in the hole, the windows may measure square but not BE "square" as we normally think of the definition. Taking it to the extreme: suppose the window was rotated on its long axis by 90 - it would still be plumb by every measurement, but wouldn't be "square".
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Install a few sliding glass doors or a few french doors and you will be checking for square all over the place!
Or installing new tiles on a floor and getting to the corners. Where two walls meet in the corner can be interesting if the walls are not square!
As for the window, if it is not installed square, you could have problems with the window opening/closing properly...
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I'm wasn't asking about problems that could occur with a window that is not square.
I was asking how a window that is plumb on both sides and level top and bottom would *not* be square.
The same goes for a french or sliding door.
I've done windows, I've done sliding doors. The thing is, after I'm made sure they were plumb and level, I'd check them for square and they always were.
As others have said, that extra check certainly can't hurt anything.
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