This topic has come up before on a.h.r
FAE is well know in military circles.
All one needs is the mixture of air (oxygen) and a suitable fuel and an ignition source.
Fuel can be any combustible liquid or combustible solid of fine enough particles (hence the danger of empty grain silos or fine wood dust in your shop)
FAE is why the 100ml (3 oz) liquid limit for airline carry on and why they want to be able to see the stuff.
Google FAE and Thermobaric weapon.
Ever hear of MOAB?
Huh...
Well, that the first time that ever happened! -----
- gpsman
-snip-
That blows my theory, then. I thought it was NY law that the company had to own the tank. I'm a couple hours north of you, near Schenectady. I've had 3 suppliers in the last 25 years and none would sell me a tank.
All have been real good about running new supply lines to any appliances I put in. [and only charge for the material- and less than I could get it at the borg]
Jim
Home made (accidentally) FAE. The tank "going off" would likely have just burned the house down. If the house was blown into little pieces, then what most likely happened was that a leaking tank filled the garage with just the right mixture of propane and air, and some ignition source detonated that.
MOAB isn't an FAE, rather a 21,000lb HE bomb (GBU-43/B).
Propane dealers are the sleaziest bunch ever. The won't touch a tank that is not theirs. I've not kept up, but some states have changed the laws to make it better for the consumer to shop around.
I've seen 100 gallon tanks for sale. I've also seen people taking them to be filled to save money. I'd have considered it in the past, but I'm not about to start hauling around the tanks and setting them up when full. Yes, I pay a high price for the privilege of having them deliver once a year.
You're right to be wary: Those were BLEVE's - Boil I think I might look into storing my 20 pound bottle somewhere safer than it is now. I'd keep it in the shed except I use it only to melt ice from the steps. Putting it in the shed means carrying it up an icy hill. Hmmm.
-- Bobby G.
I have both a fridge and a chest freezer in my attached garage, so either could be a source of ignition of propane fumes. The only fuel I keep in the garage is a 5 gallon plastic gasoline can, and then only in the winter when I keep my garden tractor equipped with a snow blower attachment in there, which also contains gasoline. I have to keep the tractor in there in the winter because I can't leave it out in the shed, like I can do in the summer when it has a mower attached, because the throttle and choke cables freeze up to where they are useless and the tractor won't start. It's a two car garage but a car was only parked in there when the house was new. There's no room for a car in there anymore. I have to move stuff around just to get the tractor in there. :-)
You must ask in your own location, Grasshoppah. Some states may have statutes that eliminate private ownership. Liability is a big issue, even if you have everything right, and have the tank inspected, yada yada. I can buy one in my state, Utah, but I would have to live a very long time for it to be a deal. Plus, as the nice propane lady told me, if I have any problem with the tank, they just bring me another one, no charge, no repair. I don't believe that would be the case with a privately owned tank.
If your issue is finding the cheapest propane, and the costs vary enough to make it mathematically justifiable, they by all means, shop around. First, though, ask the basic questions where YOU live, as some of the answers here will be worth the paper they are written on, as they won't be valid where YOU live.
Some suppliers, particularly of propane have been known to have wildly fluctuating prices, taking advantage of some people they have captive by a lease, etc.
Good luck.
Steve
Home made (accidentally) FAE. The tank "going off" would likely have just burned the house down. If the house was blown into little pieces, then what most likely happened was that a leaking tank filled the garage with just the right mixture of propane and air, and some ignition source detonated that.
reply: My in-law's house was destroyed like that while they were away. The blast blew bricks for a long distance. Blew out windows a good ways away, too. Sabotage was suspected, as my FIL was involved in a nasty lawsuit at the time, but nothing was ever proven. In his case, he had natural gas appliances. Pilot lights. It would not be hard for someone to enter, loosen a nut, and be gone. The explosion would be many hours later.
Steve
Robert Green wrote the following:
Mine are stored outside in the back yard all year round next to the grill. I use salt or sodium chloride for ice.
Propane tank farm fire in Dallas, TX.
Jufor
Check with local regs. In my case, my tank is one gallon short of being a size that has to be located a long distance from the house. Running a pipe from a tank to the house isn't THAT expensive, but it does incur additional expense. Find out what the laws are where YOU live. What someone suggests here for you to do may be illegal where you are.
Steve
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote
Ed, it is different for every planet. Here where I live, I can take any tank into a supplier, and so long as it is within test dates, and does not have any damage or deterioration that disqualifies it from service, they will fill it.
Steve
Difference between NG and Propane is propane is heavier than air - so it pools in low spots - while NG is slighly lighter than air, so it rises and mixes EVERYWHERE
It's only four steps that face north and never quite thaw. My wife hates tracking the salt around the house and I love using what feels like a big honking Goa'uld staff weapon on those stubborn ice patches.
My dad became a forensic engineer after retiring from the Navy. He said the farthest he had measured them traveling was 300 feet. Propane tanks and boilers can travel remarkable distances if the conditions are right. Reminds me of the old failed rocket test videos. They were supposed to shoot off but didn't while the propane tanks aren't supposed to shoot off but do.
The most impressive explosion video I've seen was a fire in an explosives factory. From a mile away you could see the perfectly circular blast rings radiating from the explosion *very* quickly.
Second best was an old freighter torpedoed in a test. The explosion could be seen in two stages. First, all the soot in the main smokestack blasted into the air, black as coal, as the torpedo exploded. Momentarily that was followed by the enormous, billowing brownish-grey smoke of the torpedo's high explosive charge. The poor freighter literally got "the snot" knocked out of it.
-- Bobby G.
MOH recipient: *BELCHER, TED Rank and organization: Sergeant, U.S. Army, Company C, 1st Battalion, 14th Infantry, 25th Infantry Division. Place and date: Plei Djerang, Republic of Vietnam, 19 November 1966. A hand grenade landed in the midst of the sergeant's squad. Instantly realizing the immediate danger to his men, Sgt. Belcher, unhesitatingly and with complete disregard for his safety, lunged forward, covering the grenade with his body.
Unless you like doing business with the outfits that have good marketing and well made commercials the best bet is to see if there is a local propane supplier. For example in my area there is a locally owned business that has 2 locations. They are consistently the lowest in price and also do not get carried away with fees.
*OR* a more plausible explanation is a combination of older gas appliances which had primitive safety devices in them with a sudden spike or dip in the natural gas pressure in the area of your in-laws house blew out a pilot light in one of those appliances and the gas built up in the house until one of the other pilot lights still lit or a spark from some automatic electrical appliance ignited the gas in the house...
Anyone who immediately jumps to assume sabotage without having actual evidence of that being likely (reports of strange people/vehicles near a house that soon after goes BOOM! by impartial witnesses) is a paranoid idiot...
~~ Evan
Steve said sabotage was suspected, not assumed. That's a big difference and I'm surprised you missed it. The investigator would be the idiot if they did not investigate fully - even the improbable causes.
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