I spent a long time

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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:11:05 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Okay, you win this minor diversion in an off topic discussion of an off topic discussion ;-).

Well, like, uh, ya know, like ... DUH!
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Luke
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This *has* been addressed by statute. And the Supreme Court declared that statute to be unConstitutional. Hence the proposed amendment.

No, it *is* the law:
"This Constitution ... shall be the supreme Law of the Land, and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding." [Article VI, clause 2]
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

And it *is* unconstitutional. My right to say what I think is predicated on your right to do the same. If I squelch your right, who's to stop someone from doing the same to me? I find the burning of the American flag very offensive but I don't think jailing someone over it is the answer. Believe me, I can think of some ways to express my displeasure that are absolutely within my rights.

Where do you draw the line then? Should they include other aspects of life such as the inalienable right to keep your dog from crapping in my yard? I find *that* offensive.
One needs to be very circumspect about changing the Constitution. It needs to remain damned near sacred.
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Mortimer Schnerd, RN

snipped-for-privacy@carolina.rr.com.REMOVE
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Which is why they made it difficult to amend.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

....
Well, there were at least a few of the Founding Fathers that probably wouldn't be so sure about that--although I think the issues would be more significant.
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Gene wrote:

There's nothing new in Congress acting foolishly. And the new Supreme Court decision appears to be from Beijing.
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I have never understood the near-deification of the US flag -- unless it is that, having overthrown the legitimate (if stupid) ruler more than 200 years ago, Americans have to have something to worship, something that they do not elect and cannot replace every four years or less as the mood takes them.
I have seen Australian-flag beach towels and dish towels on sale in Australia, and in UK I once saw a faded and tattered Union Jack tied on the end of a load of lumber as a warning device. Do Australia and UK have an official flag etiquette? Quite likely -- for the government and military -- but I never heard what it was in either country, and it may apply only to "official" uses. Are Australians and Brits less patriotic, less likely to fight to defend their rights and freedoms, than Americans? I don't think so.
Perce
On 06/22/05 10:56 pm Matt tossed the following ingredients into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

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I think the OP said the same as you.
The flag is a symbol only. To uphold what it stands for you must allow its desecration or inappropriate use. To do otherwise is to stifle the very thing that a good many brave souls died for.
Honor the principal. Do not worship the graven image.
Colbyt
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Matt, I am sincerely interested in your comments on this article:
Flag is a symbol, remember? By Reggie Rivers http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_2806816
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Luke

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I'm not sure I understand some of the comparisons/examples the author made, but overall I agree with him.
I simply cannot understand how a country can call itself 'free' when changes like this are proposed. It's nonsensical, IMO.
Actually, to me - it's insulting. I love this country, and all it stands for. And I'm not at all insulted when I see people burning, or desecrating a US flag. There is no act that any person could commit on/with/about the flag that would offend me. In my mind, when a US citizen desecrates the flag, they are actually embracing everything it stands for. When the people desecrating the flag don't realize this... it's even better. The system is working when this goes on.
Now, when someone who is not a US citizen desecrates the flag... my blood boils. But thats just me.
And I really don't need a bunch of chuckleheaded congressmen telling me to think about what 9/11 victims would say.
Just another example of the Gov't trying to keep the peoples focus off of important things, IMO.
And now that it's legal for my city to tear my house down whenever they feel like it....
I just don't like the direction things are going.
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And spending our money doing it. Congress may be good for nothing but their sessions aren't run for nothing.
I hope you write your Rep. (that horse is out of the barn, but it still feels good to give 'em a piece of one's mind), Senators, and letter(s) to the editor of your local paper(s). I have. I think you've got good things to say.

I would say it's hard to believe I agree with Scalia, Thomas, and Rehnquist, except that it's not the first time :-). Talking to some of my local and state officials yesterday and today, and with few exceptions I can see the dollar signs in their eyes. And the eyes of the developers. A great variety of small and large projects that have been on hold for fear of a "takings" challenge are being revived. Small business owners are reasonably worried.
Then there's the $1 billion shortfall for veterans health care at the Department of Veterans Affairs. No matter what one thinks about the military and our wars, it just isn't right to cheap out on our vets.

Me neither. Though maybe some different things and for some different reasons than you :-).
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On 06/23/05 08:26 pm Matt tossed the following ingredients into the ever-growing pot of cybersoup:

This wouldn't be too bad in practice (athough still bad in principle) if the city reckoned compensation on the basis of the resultant commercial zoning. E.g., Individual A's property is a% of the total area whose commercial value is $X million, so s/he gets a% of $X million rather than "fair market value" of the residence being taken.
Perce
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I'm more shocked and dismayed by the abuse of the Fifth Amendment (eminent domain) that the Supreme Court recently decided. Unbelievable.

Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
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Never though anyone could come up with that ruling. I know we have the best Congress that money can buy, but I thought the Supreme Court was better than that. We are all at risk now.
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We've all been at risk for some time; this only makes it worse. This same court ruled that a recent law restricting political advertising is not an abridgement of the freedom of speech or press, thus effectively repealing about half of the 1st Amendment. The 8th Amendment's prohibition against excessive fines has been effectively repealed by the Supreme Court as well... not to mention the 9th and 10th Amendments in their entirety. Meanwhile, others have had their meanings expanded *far* beyond the plain language of the text.
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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You took the words right out of my mouth. I totally agree with you, except I was not in the marines. Clinton had a sexual affair and lied about it. Bush has killed 1700 Americans and something like 100,000 Iraq people, not to mention all the other evils he has done. There isn't even a comparison. I'd much rather hear about the Clinton soap opera than hearing daily about more deaths.
What really gets me, is that while the country is in this senseless war, and gas prices are getting higher and higher and jobs are in short supply and the economy is poor (despite what Bush says), and something like half the country has no health coverage, and the list goes on........ Bush and congress are worrying about a few flag fires. It's not like it happens daily, and although the flag is a symbol of the country I love, it's still nothing more than a piece of cloth, since the REAL flag is what it symbolizes. This is even more worthless of their time than the gay marriage issue, which once again is taking away our freedoms, and only affects a small minority of the population. No, I am not gay, nor do I really endorse gays, but when is the Bush administration going to take care of the REAL problems in this country. Even if just one of them.
Another person posted Rep. Jerrold Nadler, D-N.Y., said, "If the flag needs protection at all, it needs protection from members of Congress who value the symbol more than the freedoms that the flag represents."
I think this says it all.......
Sorry for adding to this off topic thread, but this one seemed to deserve some comments. This is no longer a particism issue, it's the true facts, and I for one am really worried about what else Bush is going to do to destroy this country.
Mark
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maradcliff@UNLISTED..com wrote:

Wrong. The overwhelming majority of the deaths in Iraq have been the work of terrorists, not the US military.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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I know that this is off-topic, but:
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:08:44 +0000, Doug Miller wrote:

This is certainly true. However, we must look at things in contest. For example, if the US hadn't invaded Iraq, no US soldiers would have been killed there. Secondly, if we estimate how many Iraqi people were probably killed every day by the Saddam regime before the war started, and if we assume that things would have stayed that way until today if the US hadn't invaded Iraq, then ... well, I guess security for the Iraqi citizens hasn't really improved, but the opposite has happened. Of course, it's not the US soldiers that are killing the citizens, but it's mostly terrorist. But these terrorists weren't there or probably not that active before the war on Iraq started.
There will always be different opinions on the question whether it was a good idea to attack Iraq or not. Being no citizen of the US myself, I don't think it's right for me to judge over the Bush administration here. However, what I'd certainly say: The democratic, peaceful and safe Iraq that was promised before the war isn't really there yet. I hope that one day in the near future, this will be accomplished. But those who said: "We'll just bomb Saddam out of office and a few months later everything will be fine" were certainly wrong.
Greetings, Nils
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Nils Holland wrote:

I have to think you, and many, many others did not listen to, or comprehend, what President Bush said in the Declaration. He never promised it would be over in 1 hour, minus time for commercial breaks.
If you can't access the tapes you can certainly access the printed record. This is a WAR, not a made-for-tv show.
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