How to truck 1,000 gallons of potable water to a residence

[DannyD.]

Hul Tytus wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 21:45:32 +0000:

The *only* legal water we can get is from the San Jose Water Company, either at a SJWC hydrant, or by a trucking firm who gets their water at a SJWC hydrant. There is no other (known) way (at this point).

The trucking firm charges $225 to $250 for 3,800 gallons, or about six cents (give or take) a gallon.

The price of the water directly from SJWC is almost nothing (literally about 1/3 of a cent per gallon for just the water), although a 3" meter adds 176.98/month, which, for a day is about six bucks. But we'd still have to truck it somehow.

Point is, the water isn't what costs money. It's the transportation. I didn't know that when I first asked, but, now, the real issue is simply how to get a sizeable amount of water up a hill from a fire hydrant.

I /think/ we have a host of potential solutions:

1. Pay the 6 cents a gallon and be done with it,
2. DIY for much less but it's a lot of work.

We've lined up a spare 685 gallon water tank, and a couple of light pickups, and we're sure we can rent a 2-1/2 ton pickup (is that the carrying capacity?) so, we think we're well on our way, thanks to your help.

Also, we've lined up the fire department to give us a talk about defensible space, and we're working on getting an agreement with the lowest-cost bulk water delivery company in the area.

In addition, I've now "inspected" a half dozen residential water setups, so we can help the neighbors who don't have guys like you guys backing them up!

Thanks for all your help!

[DannyD.]

Pico Rico wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 15:20:49 -0700:

You are correct.

San Jose pumps it out of the ground below San Jose, which, interestingly, *probably* came from the bay when it had flooded San Jose (just guessing), millions of years ago when it was the middle of a fault block which dropped down, which created the mountains on either side (because they didn't drop down).

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 07 Jul 2014 07:04:03 -0400:

Where does the Santa Clara Valley get their water from?

Where does the San Jose Water Company get their water from?

It's not the bay! But that video was great!

[DannyD.]

Tekkie® wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 13:11:03 -0400:

Here's a local government PDF on the wharf hydrants everyone up here has:

They don't specify a pressure, but just a "positive flow": "Wharf hydrants shall be maintained wet (full of water), and have a positive flow at all times. Positive flow is considered to be water flowing across the full diameter of the outlet when the valve is fully open."

Here's a FAQ which describes the need for the wharf hydrant:

Here's how it's supposed to be painted:

[DannyD.]

Tekkie® wrote, on Sun, 06 Jul 2014 13:16:23 -0400:

This local Santa Clara County government PDF says all the wharf hydrants have to have the same threads (which makes sense):

Wharf Hydrants are residential type fire hydrants with a single two and one-half-inch (2-1/2-inch) outlet and a control valve (operated by a pentagon nut with no handle), typically supplied from an on-site tank or Shared Water System. (See Figure 1) Hose threads for all hydrants shall meet National Standard Thread (NST) requirements. Piping and appurtenances shall be a minimum diameter of 4-inches.

It's interesting to see in the diagram in that PDF the buried "thrust block".

I had never seen a thrust block before ... have you?

[Stormin Mormon]

I think you will rapidly find out what I did, there are VERY few men or women who will actually haul water. I am one of the very few.

I predict the wear and break down of the vehicles will be a major expense. Maybe not now, but some time when a gear box or some other expensive part goes out.

The haulers have price built in, both to pay the wage, and also the equipment costs. If you decide to water haul for your neighbors, I suggest you charge about 80% or so of what the pro guys get. I predict you'll have a lot of expenses you never expected, and that will eat up all the funds.

Expect people to react with anger if you're busy the day they run out, and you can't get to them till the next day.

[Pico Rico]

the ground water in San Jose is not millions of years old. Most of it is put back by recharging with water from the Sierras.

[Pico Rico]

seen them and poured them. Do the math.

[DannyD.]

Pico Rico wrote, on Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:33:25 -0700:

I guess a lot depends on how deep the SJWC wells are, and how permeable the rock is. For example, if the wells are 500 feet deep (just guessing, based on the depth of our residential wells), then the question is how long does it take for rainwater to percolate down 500 feet (assuming it's all similar sandy stuff).

I don't know, but we can call the SJWC at 408-279-7900 to ask.

I googled for how old the water is that we drink, but can't find the answer:

I couldn't find it in this document either:

So, we really don't know the answer. At least nobody has yet shown us a reference to the answer.

[DannyD.]

Stormin Mormon wrote, on Mon, 07 Jul 2014 20:00:12 -0400:

Some already get that way, but not many, when the internet we set up for them goes out.

Most of the time, it's the kids having played with the cables, although one time it was the radio in the dish went south (that's one reason we gave up on the nanobridges from ubiquiti).

[DannyD.]

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 02:58:02 +0000:

It's surprisingly hard to find how *old* the water is that we drink. This document merely intimates that age by saying:

"The many naturally occurring wells came from the Niles Cone ground water basin. This basin is filled with layers of clay and gravel intermittent with water was caused by the many previous floods and torrential rains."

We don't know how *many* years is "many" previous floods though ...

The Wikipedia on water in California also doesn't give us an age.

It just says: The largest groundwater reservoirs are found in the Central Valley.[3] The majority of the supply there is in the form of runoff that seeps into the aquifer. The freshwater is usually found in deposits of gravel, silt, and sand. Below these deposits lies a layer of deep sediment, a relic of the era when the Pacific Ocean covered the area."

So, all we really know is that the layer of "deep sediment" is millions of years old; but we don't really know how old the water in that sediment is.

One important point though, is that Wikipedia article implicitly implies that we're drinking "old" water because we pull out far more than is going in, according to that article.

The only way that can be sustained for decades is if the water has pooled for a very long period of time, in order to build up that surplus.

So, "implicitly", we know the water must be old; but we still don't know how old it is.

[DannyD.]

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 02:58:02 +0000:

Well, I found out that the oldest water ever sipped by a modern human is "between 1 and 2.6 billion years old":

But that water was deeeeeep at 1.5 miles while we're only talking wells that are probably 500 to 1,000 feet deep for the San Jose water supply.

This mine water in Minnesota has been dated to pre-cambrian times, which dates to an ancient sea that existed before life on earth existed:

So, certainly it's *possible* that the water in San Jose's deep wells is millions of years old ... but again ... I can't find anything that says how old that water is.

Can you?

[DannyD.]

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 03:09:17 +0000:

While the references quoted show our water "can" be billions of years old, this document says that home well water is likely only decades old, and, deeper wells (like those that San Jose Water Company likely has) can easily be thousands of years old:

"Some deep confined ground water is thousands of years old and yet is still slowly on the move."

Summarizing, depending on how deep the well is, the water can be tens of years old to thousands of years to billions of years old.

I still stick with the water under San Jose being millions of years old, and a relic of the time when the area was flooded, but, we'd need a reference to back up that hypothesis in order to be sure.

[DannyD.]

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 03:09:17 +0000:

This says they found water in Maryland a million years old:

Even the shallower groundwater in the aquifer was tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years old.

"The analysis shows that water flowed from the land surface into the deep aquifer during cooler periods in earth's history, when glaciers covered much of the northeastern U.S. and sea level was about 125 meters lower than it is today. During warmer periods in earth's history, such as in modern times, higher sea levels slow recharge of fresh water to the aquifer, due to a lower gradient between the recharge and discharge areas."

So, we know that water in aquifers 'can' be decades old, centuries old, thousands of years old, tens of thousands of years old, millions of years old, and up to 2.6 billion years old.

I still think the San Jose Water Company water "can" be millions of years old - but I haven't found that reference cite yet.

[DannyD.]

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 03:09:17 +0000:

This Wikipedia on groundwater says the water "residence time" can vary from "days to millennia" in age:

Here's a picture which shows it commonly is centuries to millenia depending on the depth of the well:

We know SJWC has "deep wells" because they mention them in all their planning documents; but we don't know how deep is deep.

For my residential neighbors, anything deeper than about 500 or

600 feet would probably be considered deep (mine, at 400 feet are constantly shutting off for lack of water, for example).

[DannyD.]

DannyD. wrote, on Wed, 09 Jul 2014 03:09:17 +0000:

Found this: SANTA CLARA VALLEY GROUNDWATER BASIN INFORMATION

It says "Water-bearing geologic formations in the Santa Clara Valley include rocks from the Pliocene through Holocene periods." It also says "it is composed mostly of folded, faulted, and sheared marine sediments from the Jura-Cretaceous period, and has been estimated to be about 50,000 feet thick."

So, while we know the rocks are "millions" of years old, it doesn't necessarily say how old the water is that is contained within those rocks.

However, one must note the existence of "volcanic deposits" in that water supply, which again, clearly, are millions of years old (since volcanism stopped when the San Andreas Fault formed, due to the change in direction of plate subduction).

A key to the age of the groundwater is the mobility of the water, which varies, as noted by this statement "Groundwater is generally unconfined in the younger alluvium and ranges from unconfined to locally confined in the older alluvium."

So, the groundwater "could" be millions of years old, or it might not be, depending on how confined it is.

One potentially telling statement is that "The basin?s northern geologic boundary is formed by contact with thick low permeability Bay Mud deposits at San Francisco Bay", which indicates it would confine water, which would lead to an older age for that water.

Apparently none of the alluvium that filled the fault block that became Silicon Valley is older than about 2 million years old though.

So, it seems that the oldest the water might be is only 2 million years, and the youngest it could be is zero years. :)

[Zaky Waky]

"DannyD." wrote in news:lpib3q$7j1$ [e-mail]:

Thanks man. I call them now from VT and post the answer for you.

[Buster Hymen]

Does it taste like dinosaur piss?

[CRNG]

On Wed, 9 Jul 2014 02:58:02 +0000 (UTC), "DannyD." wrote in

On the subject of "old", you ought to consider that the s.w. of North American has been through many cycles of long-term drought in geologic history. Long-term drought is considered to be the cause of the pre-Columbian "cliff dwellers" civilization disappearance from the New Mexico and Arizona areas in the 10th century.

My guess is that the drought will be long term and you need a long term solution such as a much deeper well.

Any idea what they charge to drill a very deep well?

[Scott Lurndal]

The spring at the bernal ranch (santa teresa/cottle) is fed by underwater streams originating in the sierra nevada (at least that's what the sign says).