Stormin Mormon wrote, on Thu, 07 Aug 2014 18:14:59 -0400:
One way you guys can help is to advise me what I should advise the lady whose middle conjoined circuit breakers appear to have the copper wire cut.
First off, WHY would anyone cut the joining wire? Secondly, is it dangerous?
While I understand that each breaker is handling 120V, and each can now trip individually, what does that mean, with respect to what I should advise the homeowner?
In NY, I've had limited experience with fire trucks. I was a fire explorer for 2.5 years, and a volunteer FF for two, and took the pump operators course (about
1990 or so).Generally the hydrant is used with either 2.4 or 4 or
5 inch connections, based on several factors. The pump goes to valves, which go to discharge threads. Some FD have preconnect lines, which are made to dump and run, often 200 feet of 1 1/2 hose. Now they use 1 3/4, which flows a lot more water with not much size. Grey hair old guys like me holler "pull an inch and a half" which gets blank looks from the kids.
If the pump is 220 volts, it should have two breakers tied together. Maybe the pump is 110 volts, and the tie isn't needed any more.
If I was there, I'd pull the front of the panel. See if the two center breakers wires go into the same tube. Might be she needs a double breaker to restore safety?
If the pump is 220, and if the breakers are separate, there is safety risk.
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Thu, 07 Aug 2014 20:09:03 -0400:
That's what I'm afraid of.
I've seen people cut the wire just to remove the front panel, to get at the back.
The 2% limit is a good thing! Prior to that they were basing the property tax on the actual value, not the the purchase price plus a maximum of 2% per year.
But Prop 13 should have applied to one, owner-occupied, residential property, not to commercial property or rental property.
Our schools must have the most amazing restrooms since every parcel tax for schools seems to mention "provide safe, clean, restrooms."
True. But here's why I kind of like the fees and parcel taxes. There's a great many people making high incomes that are paying extremely low property taxes either because of the loopholes in Prop 13, or because they are living in their parent's house, or because they have turned a former personal residence into an income property. They can't escape the parcel taxes and fees and as these become a larger percentage of the total tax burden it becomes fairer.
For example, on the street next to me, one family is living in the wife's parent's house. They are probably paying about $1000 per year in property taxes. If the house was taxed at the assessed value it would bring in about $18,000 per year. If it were assessed at the value when they moved in, plus 2% annual increases, it would probably be taxed at $6000-7000. They send their kids to the same public schools as the kids of parents paying $8000-16,000 in property taxes. They are free-loading.
These taxes and fees usually have an exemption for seniors (but ironically seniors still get to vote to impose them) so the argument of "taxing seniors out their homes" doesn't work.
Maximum of 2% per year increase.
This would be pretty fair, and would provide sufficient revenue, if it applied to one, primary, non-commercial, owner-occupied, residence, with no exceptions. Unfortunately there are loads of exceptions. So with so many people able to pay far less than their fair share, the property taxes need to be supplemented with parcel taxes.
Additional parcel taxes can be passed with a 2/3 vote. School taxes in areas with good schools always seem to pass. With good reason because houses in areas with good schools increase in value and are fairly immune to housing bubbles. A 1960's era, 1500-2000 square foot, tract home, on a 6000 square foot lot, in a neighborhood with good schools, is around $1.5 million. Property taxes would be about $20K per year.
Housing and college tuition are what are the biggest expenses in California. Other expenses are not really greater than a lot of other states. Food is cheap.
Please go into some detail. When you say "cut the wire" do you mean the wire that ties the two handles together?
sms wrote, on Thu, 07 Aug 2014 17:47:58 -0700:
This is true, I can't disagree. Steve is almost a neighbor, he's so close. In fact, Steve, if you want, let me know if this is your true email (it's not mine), and I'll send you an email, since we practically live next door.
If you've been in your house since, oh, say, the mid 90's, your taxes are likely less than $10K per year, while if you've bought it since then, your takes are easily double that.
It's an unfair system, which, can't even afford yellow school buses, but which gives wonderful pensions to the San Jose police department.
sms wrote, on Thu, 07 Aug 2014 17:56:42 -0700:
I don't think a single school parcel tax measure has ever failed in Cupertino, Campbell, Saratoga, Los Gatos, Willow Glen, Los Altos, Mountainview, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, Woodside, etc., do you?
They rebuild or renovate the schools about once every five years, or so, it seems, so, I'm sure, as you noted, the bathrooms must be fantasatic!
Yet, after all that, they can't "afford" school buses. Makes no sense at all, to me.
Does it make sense to you? Did California *ever* have yellow school buses?
Out of curiosity, what are the typical taxes on say a nice 3 bedroom
2 1/2 bath home, 3000 sq ft, on about an acre lot?Stormin Mormon wrote, on Thu, 07 Aug 2014 21:09:28 -0400:
Yes. I think someone 'vandalized' the breaker (probably a workman who felt his time was worth more than the lady's property).
There are four 120 volt circuit breakers in this picture:
The two outer breakers are labeled "WELL PUMP", while the two inner circuit breakers are labeled "PRESSURE PUMP".
On one of "my" circuit breakers, you see something similar, with the two inner breakers tied together while the two outer breakers are also tied together (in this case, for the air conditioning system).
There is a copper wire connecting the two inner breakers, which is cut.
I'm pretty sure that copper wire didn't break on its own, so, someone cut it. Why would they cut it? The only reason I can think of is that they wanted to remove the panel, and the wire gets in the way (I've seen that before), but in this panel, it seems that wasn't an impediment.
So, I don't know *why* someone cut the wire, but, what I need to know is
*what* to tell the homeowner about it since she has precious little money.trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 08 Aug 2014 11:13:25 -0700:
An acre? Most land out here in Silicon Valley is sold by the square foot, not by the acre.
Here's a lookup for Saratoga, where I think Steve hails from:
Taxes are roughly between 1.5% and 2% of the price you paid for the house, so, the MEDIAN property taxes in Saratoga would be 2% of $1,340,000, which is about $27,000/year, which sounds about right for where I live also.
Given the almost 10% income tax in California, with a median income of $150K, that's another $15 in California property taxes. Add to that a sales tax of almost 10% and you get a whoppingly high tax burden, which when you add the marginal 36% Federal (but average is probably around 40% ), you get a tax burden that easily exceeds 60% to 70% of your income.
Yet, they keep voting for higher, and higher, and higher taxes. (I don't get it).
Back to your question, I'll look up the median property size (I'm not sure how to find that information) but I'll also post the income and property value cite from that site above:
"Saratoga, California is located in Santa Clara. Nearby cities and towns include Campbell, Cupertino, Los Gatos, Loyola and Monte Sereno. Saratoga is a suburban community with a population of 29,972. The median household income in Saratoga is $145,807. 73% of residents are married and families with children reside in 41% of Saratoga households. Half the population of Saratoga commutes 26 minutes or more to work, with 83% of residents holding white collar jobs and 17% residents holding blue collar jobs.
The median age of homes in Saratoga, CA is 35 years, with 82% of those homes owned, 14% rented and 3% not occupied. In the previous year, 0 Saratoga properties were sold. The median sale price of a home in Saratoga in the previous year was $1,340,000."
trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 08 Aug 2014 11:13:25 -0700:
Saratoga California is a good sample city, as it is where at least one of our members reside and it's representative of the white-collar communities around it (Monte Sereno, Campbell, Cupertino, Los Gatos, Santa Clara, etc.) here in Santa Clara County.
Here are the housing trends from Trulia:
For all homes in Saratoga, they list the median price at 1.85 million (so the property taxes on that are about 1.5% to 2% of that, which is about $30K to 35K (roughly) per year.
But for just a basic 3-bedroom home, the chart shows the average at $921 per square foot of living space. So, if it's a tiny 1,000 square foot home, that's almost a million dollars right there, on average. For a
2,000 square foot home, we're looking at the 1.85 million median value.So, that means, most likely, most homes in Saratoga were about 2,000 square feet (assuming 3 bedrooms), at almost 2 million dollars.
It's hard to find lot sizes in a chart, but here's a half-acre lot which sold just recently for 3.5 million dollars (their property taxes alone will be between $50,000 and $70,000 per year.
Danny D. wrote, on Fri, 08 Aug 2014 18:45:14 +0000:
If we look at the current homes for sale, in Saratoga:
This is the first one I find that is 3 bedrooms ... House For Sale: $1,150,000, Zestimate®: $1.23M
9 days on Zillow, Built in 1957 18256 Baylor Ave, Saratoga, CA 3 beds, 2 baths, 1,460 sqft, 8,189 sqft lotThat seems about right.
Let's say it sells for 1 million, so that would be $685/square foot, which is way less than the average price per square foot of $921, so the house, built in the fifties, must be a fixer-upper at that price.
The total land is 8,189 square feet (which includes the house). What percentage of an acre is that? I don't know.
Well, funny thing that. I'm familiar with the heart of silicon valley, been there many times. But while you were saying silicon valley, you also were talking about 10,000 gallon water tanks, homes in the hills, etc, so I thought you were probably a bit further out, where maybe there were some bigger lots. In those earlier discussions I was having a hard time picturing a 10,000 gallon tank on a hill in Santa Clara for example.
Well, it does make NJ look better. Here the house I described would be worth more like $600K and paying more like $11K in taxes. And I presume the recent real estate debacle worked itself through there and prices adjusted a bit.
I guess your one of the folks that can add and thinks you're taxed too much. LOL That's what gets me. You have some folks running around talking about a top Fed rate of 34% or 39%, pretending that it's not so much, like that's all the taxes we pay. Or comparing it to Fed rates 50 years ago, when there was no state income tax, sales tax, property taxes were very low, etc. Today the combined effect is staggering.
Part of the problem is that you have more and more people who are riding in the wagon, instead of pulling it and they vote too. But still, I agree, I don't get it either. I guess it's like cooking a frog. If you threw the frog in the pot of hot water, they would jump out. But when you just keep inching it up, little at a time, people take it. We're getting hosed here in NJ good too, but clearly it's worse for you.
So a 3 bedroom, 2 bath house is $1.3mil, taxes on it are $27K, and the median income is $145K. That still doesn't compute.
73% of residents are married and families
About 1/5. Acre is like 43000 sq ft as I recall. Here, central NJ, shore, about an hour from NYC, a 3000 sw ft, 3 bed, 2 1/2 bath on 1 acre is about $600K. If you get real close to the shore, within 1/2 mile, it the most exclusive areas, it could be $1.8 mil on your 1/5 acre type lot. And it could be several million if it's waterview.
trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 08 Aug 2014 13:37:08 -0700:
Just up the hill, in the same town of Saratoga, are those 10,000 gallon water tanks. Same town. Different topography.
The flatlands don't have these tanks nor the land. The ridges have the tanks and the land.
There are no houses in the ridges less than about 2 million dollars. The zoning is 40 acres, so, they don't want you to build there.
So even a run-down place will be millions of dollars.
trader_4 wrote, on Fri, 08 Aug 2014 13:37:08 -0700:
Actually I made a typo or two in those rates, but the point is that I do agree with you that we're taxed tremendously.
Most we're taxed by:
- Property tax (average it to be about $10,000/year, but it varies) so let's call that 10% of your income (give or take)
- Federal income tax (marginal is in the mid thirty percent, but let's average around 25%, give or take)
- State income tax (here, it's closer to a flat 9.something so let's call that 10%, give or take)
- Sales tax (here, it's roughly around 8.75% so, and assume you buy $5/ year, including your car, which is effectively sales-taxed every year, and we can assume that's in the noise level at about 1/2% to 1% of your income).
- Gas tax (here's it's around 30.something cents per gallon, so if you drive 15K miles a year, that's another 1/2% to 1% of your income).
And there's more. Every time you pay your Ooma bill, which is zero dollars for your VOIP phone, you *still* have to pay almost $5 for service taxes, so, let's assume service taxes are another 1/2% of your income.
I didn't even get to social security taxes, and the like, so, without even adding that, when we add it up, it's certainly over 1/2 your income goes directly to taxes in almost every case.
Yet, Californians seem to think they can never be taxed enough. Sigh.
Double breakers are about ten bucks each, for common panels like Cutler Hammer. I'd be tempted to take out the quad setup, and put in two doubles. A good worker could move the wires around and swap out the breakers in a few minutes.
I'd sure not want a 220 volt appliance on separate breakers. Unsafe.
Stormin Mormon wrote, on Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:28:06 -0400:
I will tell her. Do you think it's only the INSIDE two that are double breakers? Or, do you think the OUTSIDE two were also tied together at one time?
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