how to remove ceiling junction box from below?

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thanks Nate, you have been a huge help.

Reply to
TC
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Yes, I see the problem now too. Really dumb design they made to not have allowed it to work with either box. The fact that it puts part of the fixture into the box raises another interesting question. Despite what they claim, can this be installed in a regular ceiling box and be code compliant? There are box fill rules and when you start using the box for the fixture itself, it's going to use up some of that volume, especially when per the new drawings, the fixture consumes the entire surface area of the box dimensions. If it extends much at all into the box, I would think an extra deep box might be required to be code compliant. So, since he needs to install a new box, I'd get a deep one, if possible.

Yes, and just so he understands, if he does cut the cable, then he has two choices. Put another ceiling box nearby that the undamaged cable can reach to, then run a new cable from there to where the light is. That leaves you with a new junction box you have to cover with a blank plate, because it has to be accessible and it doesn't look pretty. Whether that is even possible, depends on how the cable that you can't see runs. If for example it comes from above, straight down into the old box, then you don't have means to do the above. If it runs across sideways, then you probably can, assuming you can free up enough cable. And that could easily involve opening the drywall.

Option two is to trace the cable back to somewhere that a new junction box could be added and remain accessible or where it's connected in an existing box somewhere. Adding a new box like that could be fairly easy if there is accessible attic above. If there is a second story above, etc, then it's usually a nightmare and you're back to option 1.

So, before I did try to cut out the old box, I'd be 99% sure I'm not going to damage the cable. Which, may be a good reason to consider just opening up the drywall to do the work that way. As I said before, it's going over a sink, and many times that area is it's only it's own little section of drywall, so you don't have to then paint the whole kitchen ceiling, etc. The tradeoff is that with that approach, there is guaranteed more work involved than if he uses the cut it/tear it out method and it comes out fairly easy.

Personally, the first thing I'd do is do a search to find out if there is another similar LED light available that doesn't have this mounting problem. It's not an inherent problem that would be common to all lights, just this one did a bad design. Or perhaps consider other lighting options. It's a neat light, but it does have one big drawback....

Turn the power off to that fixture before you do it, for obvious

It's an LED light so it only weighs a couple pounds, if that. As I said before, there are old work boxes similar to the type you're talking about that are rated for holding fixtures up to some number of pounds, eg 3, 5 etc. Instead of the swing out ears they have metal side pieces that expand outwards. I wouldn't use them for hanging anything of much substance, but they are perfect for that small LED light.

Reply to
trader4

So you read one post, misunderstand it completely and make an overall assessment of my posting history.

Do some research.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

That I agree with. You have to wonder about box fill limits and if it really can be installed in a std depth box.

That was my initial impression too. But if you go to HD and search, there is a "disk light" LED fixture and it looks like the one he showing in the picture. It extends down 2" below the ceiling and it says it is in fact exactly what the OP says it is, ie an LED light fixture that attaches to a ceiling box. And they do call it a recessed light, though it really isn't

I haven't seen a trim piece that looks like that, certainly it's not typical for an LED light trim piece, they fit flat to the ceiling. And what good would it do for him to be trying to mount a trim piece that has no light?

Did you see the last pics he posted. He drew an outline of how the back of the fixture extends into the box and why it won't work with some boxes. Why would a trim piece have an outline that perfectly matches a ceiling box, or at least some ceiling boxes?

If I were the OP, I'd be looking to see if there are similar ones from other manufacturers that don't have this mounting problem.

Reply to
trader4

Protruding into the box certainly sounds bizarre.

Far as I know there has not been a link to a HomeDepot product. No information from the manufacturer. No picture of the back of the light. He found it in the "recessed/can lights section". It looks like a trim for a recessed light.

My conclusion - it is a for a recessed light and is not intended to be mounted on a box.

Further speculation - the OP knows it is not intended to be mounted on a box. Additional substantiation - the OP is from the homemoanershub.

Maybe use a BFH?

Reply to
bud--

So why didn't the OP post a link to HD? GIGO The link may be

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(discontinued)

I suspect that is what you found. And what a find - a link to installation instructions.

Looking at the instructions, it is a trim for a recessed light can. Compatible cans are listed. It must have the LED light included.

It is probably what Tomsic [=] linked to.

The manufacturer says it can be installed in a "Standard 4 inch J-box (Min Height:2.25 inch)". From the OP's experience obviously not. And 4" octagon boxes are "standard 4" J-boxes". What does 2.25" mean - depth of box? depth needed by light in box?

As you pointed out twice above, box fill space for the wires is entirely ignored in the installation instructions. IMHO the remaining usable space in the box needs to be determined and has to be larger than the calculated wire fill for the wires present. That is another reason the fixture may not be usable. (Or there is always a BFH.)

I suggest the OP include adequate information when he asks for advice. Like a link to the product and instructions.

Reply to
bud--

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the original question was about how to, or is it possible to remove box and replace with another, that's all. The light fits in the box shown and are all available at Home Depot.

Reply to
TC

You'd have to ask the OP that question.

No, this is what I found and it's not discontinued:

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9D8

6 in. Soft White LED Disk Light For Recessed Can Lighting Model # CE-JB6-650L-27K-E26 Internet # 203886372

The Commercial Electric 6 in. LED Disk Light by Cree makes it easy to upgra de your existing lighting to energy efficient LED technology. The Disk Ligh t can be installed in an existing recessed can or wherever a 4 in. junction box is installed - making it extremely versatile for both retro-fit and ne w installation. The semi recessed lens gives the appearance of a higher end recessed fixture and is instant on and fully dimmable. The LED disk Light is perfect for kitchens, hallways, bathrooms, closets, laundry, porches and garage work rooms.

It does appear to be a similar product to what you found. Again, it's not just a trim piece it clearly says it will install into a 4" junction box. It doesn't have installation instructions.

Good grief. Not only does the product description say it can be used with a std 4" box, the installation instructions from the link you just provided for the discontinued product shows how to install it that way. It shows installation into an exiting 5", 6" recessed fixture or a 4" box. Your choice. Since it will install into a just a 4" box, it's a complete light fixture, not just a trim piece.

And I would think most of them would be installed like the OP is doing, into a box, rather than into an existing recessed light fixture. That's because if you have an existing recessed fixture, there are many other products available that fit flat to the ceiling and look much better, ie like a real recessed light.

Did you look at the pics the OP posted of the old box and a new box? The two boxes are in fact just slightly different on the inside on one side. The old box has what looks like a spot for another screw next to the usual one. He even took the time to fill in with yellow where the product fits and show what the fitment problem is. The product he has apparently is shaped to exactly follow the outline of the inside of the box, with just a little clearance so with that extra screw spot there it hits.

And 4"

I would assume it means the min depth of the box.

Yes, the box fill is a good question. Nothing I've seen shows how far into the box it goes. Presumably the OP has one and if he comes back, he can tell us. Given that the one he has closely follows the exact shape of the box, it's the worst case for taking up space.

I agree, that would be a good idea. But on the other hand you have to give him credit for posting several pictures to better understand the problem.

Reply to
trader4

Hmmm, Poor junction box is really taking a beating..., LOL!

Reply to
Tony Hwang

I have never seen a light that requires much of the fixture to be inside the mounting box. Apparently no one else here has either.

The link I found would have made it clear that is what is happening. Trader's link doesn't have installation instructions, but they are probably available from the manufacturer once you know the mfger & model, in the link.

People here often come up with alternate solutions, which requires information. Other boxes suggested (which are easier to install) may not work with this fixture. The manufacturer's "standard 4" J-boxes" has at least 2 problems (one of which you found).

The comments about wire fill, which the manufacturer ignores are relevant in any case.

I think it is unlikely you can remove the existing box and install a similar one (without the extra post) without damaging the ceiling.

I might try removing the extra post with something like a router first.

Reply to
bud--

Along those lines, using one of those rotozip saws might be a good solution. On either the box of the light, depending of course if you can tell if the portion of the light is just plastic, ie that you won't damage some electrical component behind it.

Reply to
trader4

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