how to remove ceiling junction box from below?

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OK first of all why won't the light fit on your old box? It looks like a s tandard plastic ceiling box - maybe attached the same way as the loose box you posted a pic of, so removing it might involve breaking it apart and/or using a hacksaw unless you just give up and bust up the drywall. Second, i t'll be much easier to use either an 'old work box' or a metal box with a s eparate hanger bar if you do replace it, although I don't see the need...
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On Monday, October 14, 2013 11:53:08 PM UTC-4, N8N wrote:

I asked that question a week ago. He said something about the holes not being in the right place. I said:
"Those boxes both seem to have holes in the same places to me. I've yet to come across a light fixture that didn't work with the screw holes in existing boxes and that existing box you have doesn't look unusual to me.
It's an interesting LED light that he's found. I've never seen one like that. They call it recessed, but it actually sticks out 2", but it does attach to a 4" ceiling box.
It think this is it on HD. If not, it's the same type. If link doesn't work, you can search for disk light.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-6-in-Soft-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-CE-JB6-650L-27K-E26/203886372#.Ul1ExEvD9D8
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Take a look at: http://www.lsgc.com/fixtures/glimpse/ Is this what you're talking about? If so, it's an award-winning product from the 2012 Lighting for Tomorrow Competition ( www.lightingfortomorrow.com ). Nice idea to make it screw onto a J-Box and it looks better than a bare 40 or 60-watt bulb.
Tomsic
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replying to N8N , TC wrote:

It however does not fit the box I have installed now (notice difference in screw placements).
that is what prompted the question about difficulty of removing the existing one and installing a new one in its place.
yes, that is the same light from HD. Thanks for the link to lsgc.com.
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On 10/16/2013 11:44 AM, TC wrote:

Can you post a picture of the light? I'm still not understanding how it couldn't fit, all the pics you've posted are of pretty standard ceiling boxes and a ceiling light intended for mounting on a box ought to fit all of them.
nate
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replying to Nate Nagel , TC wrote:

the light slips into the box, has 2 notches on sides, both the same. the box with the different hole placements does not fit into notches on light.
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wrote:

history - but lamp canopies do NOT fit the cover holes of round or octagon ceiling boxes. That is what the T-Bar (or cross bar) is for. The bar fastens to the box. With or without a fixture tube, the fixture fastens to the cross bar, and the canopy, if it screws to the mounting, is screwed to the cross bar - NOT to the box.
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On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:22:00 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

He posted a pic of the light already, but it's just a pic of the outside of the light. What he should post is the link to the light at HD, the install instructions, something that shows why the mount for the new light won't fit the current box. I went to HD website and they have a couple that look like it. It's not really recessed, it sticks out 2" and it's LED. So that apparently gives them enough room for the power supply. That explains how a "recessed" light can go on a box like that. It's not really recessed. The one I saw at HD online didn't have install instructions or anything that showed the back of the light, how it connects, etc.
In the beginning, he posted a pic of the current box and his new proposed box. He keeps saying the holes are in different locations, but from the pic, they seemed the same to me. The other obvious problem is his proposed box is the nail in style and we all know that isnt' going in, unless he tears open the drywall. He needs an old work box that's rated to hold a fixture. That assumes he can get the existing box out without opening the drywall.
But before we get to all that, I'm with you. That old box is plastic, which means it's not some strange 100 year old box. I've yet to see a box that looked like that which would not connect to a common light fixture.
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On 10/17/2013 09:09 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I poked around the HD site, couldn't find anything. Looks like a Cree-made product (good, probably high CRI) but I also couldn't find a picture of anything other than the room side of the light, or any installation instructions.

Worst case scenario, since after my original post suggesting a fan box, he's clarified that this is over a kitchen sink, so no need for a fan rated box. At this point I would bust out the old box if it really won't work, and go buy a metal octagon box and a steel hanger (e.g. Raco 8325 - that's the NM cable version, if your house uses armored cable, you'd need a box with different cable clamps but it would look simlar) and install that through the 4" hole in the drywall. It'll be a pain in the ass, as it will require screwing the hanger to the joists by hand with a plain old screwdriver through a really small hole, but if that doesn't work, the light really doesn't fit a "standard ceiling box."
I'd still like a picture of *why* it won't work, though, because a) I'm just naturally curious and b) understanding it more fully might help come up with a more creative solution.
nate
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On Thursday, October 17, 2013 10:35:38 AM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

Why does he need to do that instead of just using one of the old work boxes that are rated for holding fixtures up to a few pounds? It just goes in the hole and has tabs that you then expand out by turning screws to hold it in. That of course assumes the existing hole isn't too big to fit said new box.
I've never tried to get an old box out like that, but if it's nailed in there good, I would think it would be a bitch to do without damaging the drywall. And if you can't use an old work box, then it's gonna be a bitch getting the new one in. Which is why I said if it was in it's own separate little ceiling space above the sink, like in a lot of houses that I've seen, another option is to just take out a piece of drywall. It's not such a big deal. If it's part of the main ceiling, then it becomes more involved, ie you'd have to paint the whole ceiling, etc.
I think he took down the original pics he put up. But he had a pic of the old box and the proposed new box, which was the nail in type. He said that you can see that the holes are in different locations. I looked at the two pics and they both seemed to have holes in the same places, like the boxes we're all familiar with. And he never gave any more specifics other than that. Even if the holes are in different spots, one would think you could make an interposer if you will, eg a strip of metal or something that could adapt it. I wonder if this could be a USA/CA thing, metric issue of something?
IDK, but like I said, I've never seen a modern plastic box like that where it would not fit to a new standard light fixture. If he could take some pics of how it mounts, the backside, bracket, whatever and tell us exactly what doesn't line up with what maybe there is a solution.

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replying to snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net , TC wrote:

to help clarify, there is only one picture available on Home Depot website, none of the back of light. here is a pic of the 2 boxes in question. the one the left has the design the light is can fit into. yellow represents the base of the light.
the box I have installed is the one on the right. notice the difference in hole alignment. this is the best I can do to identify problem. need to replace one box with the other to make it work.
thanks for helping with suggestions.
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On 10/19/2013 04:45 PM, TC wrote:

Ah, I get it now. some of the working bits of the fixture actually protrude into the box, and it's poorly designed because if it were designed right it'd have clearance for that box.
Can you cut part of the light away to make it work? That'd be easiest. (I can't tell without seeing pics of the back of the light.) NB: that will of course void the UL listing and a kitten will die with every light you so modify. YHBW.
Next suggestion, if that won't work. You should be able to tell which side of the box the stud is on. If you can't, try probing around the edge of it with a piece of stiff wire; that should solve it.
Then, take a sawzall and cut the box in two places near where the nail tabs are located. BE VERY CAREFUL not to get near any cables. If you cut through the jacket of any cables you just made yourself a LOT more work. Turn the power off to that fixture before you do it, for obvious reasons. That should weaken the box enough that if you set a piece of dowel, socket extension, something against the back of the box and smack it with a hammer, it should break apart and go up into the ceiling, where you can retrieve the pieces and then remove the nail on bits from the stud. Sawzall will help here too.
To install a new box, either use a metal box with a bar hanger as I suggested in a previous post (you install the bar hanger separately from the box, is how this can work with only a 4" access hole.) You will need a little bit of wire to do this as if you use a metal box code requires that you attach the ground wire to the box. If it is long enough you might be able to wrap it around the box's ground screw and still have enough left to wire nut to the fixture's ground wire. Alternately, if the drywall is solid and your new light is not too heavy, they make blue plastic "old work" boxes with tabs that clamp the box to the drywall itself; I think someone suggested that as well. Like this:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-18-cu-in-Round-Old-Work-Ceiling-Box-B618RR/100404072#.UmL0dEmzXWg
Note in the description it says "not intended for fixture support in ceilings" - use discretion here if the light is too heavy to be supported only by drywall nor not. Personally I would be more comfortable with the metal box/bar hanger solution.
good luck
nate
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replying to Nate Nagel , TC wrote:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-18-cu-in-Round-Old-Work-Ceiling-Box-B618RR/100404072#.UmL0dEmzXWg

thanks Nate, you have been a huge help.
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On Saturday, October 19, 2013 5:10:30 PM UTC-4, Nate Nagel wrote:

Yes, I see the problem now too. Really dumb design they made to not have allowed it to work with either box. The fact that it puts part of the fixture into the box raises another interesting question. Despite what they claim, can this be installed in a regular ceiling box and be code compliant? There are box fill rules and when you start using the box for the fixture itself, it's going to use up some of that volume, especially when per the new drawings, the fixture consumes the entire surface area of the box dimensions. If it extends much at all into the box, I would think an extra deep box might be required to be code compliant. So, since he needs to install a new box, I'd get a deep one, if possible.

Yes, and just so he understands, if he does cut the cable, then he has two choices. Put another ceiling box nearby that the undamaged cable can reach to, then run a new cable from there to where the light is. That leaves you with a new junction box you have to cover with a blank plate, because it has to be accessible and it doesn't look pretty. Whether that is even possible, depends on how the cable that you can't see runs. If for example it comes from above, straight down into the old box, then you don't have means to do the above. If it runs across sideways, then you probably can, assuming you can free up enough cable. And that could easily involve opening the drywall.
Option two is to trace the cable back to somewhere that a new junction box could be added and remain accessible or where it's connected in an existing box somewhere. Adding a new box like that could be fairly easy if there is accessible attic above. If there is a second story above, etc, then it's usually a nightmare and you're back to option 1.
So, before I did try to cut out the old box, I'd be 99% sure I'm not going to damage the cable. Which, may be a good reason to consider just opening up the drywall to do the work that way. As I said before, it's going over a sink, and many times that area is it's only it's own little section of drywall, so you don't have to then paint the whole kitchen ceiling, etc. The tradeoff is that with that approach, there is guaranteed more work involved than if he uses the cut it/tear it out method and it comes out fairly easy.
Personally, the first thing I'd do is do a search to find out if there is another similar LED light available that doesn't have this mounting problem. It's not an inherent problem that would be common to all lights, just this one did a bad design. Or perhaps consider other lighting options. It's a neat light, but it does have one big drawback....
Turn the power off to that fixture before you do it, for obvious

It's an LED light so it only weighs a couple pounds, if that. As I said before, there are old work boxes similar to the type you're talking about that are rated for holding fixtures up to some number of pounds, eg 3, 5 etc. Instead of the swing out ears they have metal side pieces that expand outwards. I wouldn't use them for hanging anything of much substance, but they are perfect for that small LED light.
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On 10/20/2013 8:18 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Protruding into the box certainly sounds bizarre.
Far as I know there has not been a link to a HomeDepot product. No information from the manufacturer. No picture of the back of the light. He found it in the "recessed/can lights section". It looks like a trim for a recessed light.
My conclusion - it is a for a recessed light and is not intended to be mounted on a box.
Further speculation - the OP knows it is not intended to be mounted on a box. Additional substantiation - the OP is from the homemoanershub.
Maybe use a BFH?
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On Sunday, October 20, 2013 12:08:44 PM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:

That I agree with. You have to wonder about box fill limits and if it really can be installed in a std depth box.

That was my initial impression too. But if you go to HD and search, there is a "disk light" LED fixture and it looks like the one he showing in the picture. It extends down 2" below the ceiling and it says it is in fact exactly what the OP says it is, ie an LED light fixture that attaches to a ceiling box. And they do call it a recessed light, though it really isn't
I haven't seen a trim piece that looks like that, certainly it's not typical for an LED light trim piece, they fit flat to the ceiling. And what good would it do for him to be trying to mount a trim piece that has no light?
Did you see the last pics he posted. He drew an outline of how the back of the fixture extends into the box and why it won't work with some boxes. Why would a trim piece have an outline that perfectly matches a ceiling box, or at least some ceiling boxes?
If I were the OP, I'd be looking to see if there are similar ones from other manufacturers that don't have this mounting problem.

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On 10/20/2013 10:28 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

So why didn't the OP post a link to HD? GIGO The link may be http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-6-in-T91-Warm-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-DISCONTINUED-CED6-WW-120-WH/203338438
(discontinued)
I suspect that is what you found. And what a find - a link to installation instructions.

Looking at the instructions, it is a trim for a recessed light can. Compatible cans are listed. It must have the LED light included.
It is probably what Tomsic [=] linked to.

The manufacturer says it can be installed in a "Standard 4 inch J-box (Min Height:2.25 inch)". From the OP's experience obviously not. And 4" octagon boxes are "standard 4" J-boxes". What does 2.25" mean - depth of box? depth needed by light in box?
As you pointed out twice above, box fill space for the wires is entirely ignored in the installation instructions. IMHO the remaining usable space in the box needs to be determined and has to be larger than the calculated wire fill for the wires present. That is another reason the fixture may not be usable. (Or there is always a BFH.)

I suggest the OP include adequate information when he asks for advice. Like a link to the product and instructions.
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replying to bud-- , TC wrote:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-6-in-T91-Warm-White-LED-Disk-Light-For-Recessed-Can-Lighting-DISCONTINUED-CED6-WW-120-WH/203338438

the original question was about how to, or is it possible to remove box and replace with another, that's all. The light fits in the box shown and are all available at Home Depot.
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On 10/22/2013 12:44 PM, TC wrote:

I have never seen a light that requires much of the fixture to be inside the mounting box. Apparently no one else here has either.
The link I found would have made it clear that is what is happening. Trader's link doesn't have installation instructions, but they are probably available from the manufacturer once you know the mfger & model, in the link.
People here often come up with alternate solutions, which requires information. Other boxes suggested (which are easier to install) may not work with this fixture. The manufacturer's "standard 4" J-boxes" has at least 2 problems (one of which you found).
The comments about wire fill, which the manufacturer ignores are relevant in any case.
I think it is unlikely you can remove the existing box and install a similar one (without the extra post) without damaging the ceiling.
I might try removing the extra post with something like a router first.
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bud-- wrote:

Poor junction box is really taking a beating..., LOL!
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