At any rate, $50 a month for water is a Bargoon. We are quite water-consrvation conscious, and virtually NEVER water our lawn, and pay an average of $57-$65/month for water (including sewage) - and that's on a municipal system
On 09/14/2015 3:49 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote: ...
No idea about Canada; in US it'll be local/state law that rules and they're undoubtedly quite variable in what is/isn't required...the northeast typically most onerous/regulated, the south and midwest less...those are generalities to be overruled by specifics, of course. :)
I've been fortunate to never have had to deal with such specifically, but the OPs place simply sounds by the description as it were an older home (prior farmhouse, maybe?) the original owner simply divided and sold, not a condo development per se.
I agree, not clear at all what exactly this actually is, but sounds more like a house that was divided. Along the way, OP said he replaced/************+- the roof and that resulted in the loss of solar panels which were providing electric power. If it was a house turned into a condo, you would think the roof would probably belong to both owners, but I guess it could be a sprawling ranch or similar. Interesting that the panels were not replaced, that must be a whole additional story of woe. Solar panels didn't appear here in NJ that long ago, wonder how long they lasted, what was wrong with them that they could not be put back on the new roof? Also, seems it's a bad idea to put new solar panels on a roof with limited years of life left.....
In all this, the most relevant things we still don't know are:
What does the master deed, bylaws, etc say about the shared well? OP said it was spelled out, but nothing more.
Who pays for repair, replacement, winter blowout of the sprinklers, etc?
If the OP is responsible for everything, including hauling home salt, maintaining the water softener, etc, then I'd say the $50 a month fee is certainly reasonable.
The other party giving him the grief, probably never even owned a house with a well, water softener, irrigation system, etc. IDK why anyone would ever buy a property like this, unless it was an extraordinary location, extraordinary deal, etc. Otherwise I'd just find another property where you don't have to deal with this nonsense. Another big mistake was not putting the agreement into writing before the neighbor closed. I would have written something up, setting the price and duration, also excluding myself for liability for water quality, interruption of service, etc.
It would be interesting to hear how this winds up, but I suspect the OP will likely disappear at some point.
John G posted for all of us...
+1
big bucks to the utility company for the new service, though.
Here in Ontario, for sure - ANY condo has to meet the same standards as far as reserves etc.
And who pays for that? Plus it only solves a part of the problem. Who paid for the well, pump, water softener, sprinkler system and maintenance, replacement as needed, etc? If the OP is responsible for that, paying for the salt for the water softener, doing the work, I say the electric usage is largely irrelevant, $50 a months sounds very reasonable to me even if the electric portion is only $15.
And who pays for that? Plus it only solves a part of the problem. Who paid for the well, pump, water softener, sprinkler system and maintenance, replacement as needed, etc? If the OP is responsible for that, paying for the salt for the water softener, doing the work, I say the electric usage is largely irrelevant, $50 a months sounds very reasonable to me even if the electric portion is only $15.
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Nothing is reasonable without facts. OP has none. OP doesn't want to determine what the facts are. And I think he would be nuts to take an amount in excess of the actual electric costs without the FACTS regarding capital costs, reserve requirements, etc.
In other words, he should be doing this in a responsible manner, like condos (and others) do. But he resists. I'm done with him. This is a simple matter. Get 'er done!
I disagree. If he's lugging the salt home, paying for it, maintaining the softener, the neighbor has no responsibility for paying for repairs to the system, the pump, the well, the heater, etc, then $50 is a reasonable price for softened water for a household of 3. It's not out of line for many municipal water bills.
To gather the hard data isn't a trivial or inexpensive exercise. And then, assuming the neighbor is not responsible for splitting the above system costs, you're still left with what is a reasonable charge for unexpected maintenance, depreciation, etc. I'd have no problem paying $50 a month for softened water for a family of three plus watering of a large yard. The neighbor doesn't like it, maybe she should come up with the detailed investigation and analysis of all of the above.
I disagree. If he's lugging the salt home, paying for it, maintaining the softener, the neighbor has no responsibility for paying for repairs to the system, the pump, the well, the heater, etc, then $50 is a reasonable price for softened water for a household of 3. It's not out of line for many municipal water bills.
To gather the hard data isn't a trivial or inexpensive exercise. And then, assuming the neighbor is not responsible for splitting the above system costs, you're still left with what is a reasonable charge for unexpected maintenance, depreciation, etc. I'd have no problem paying $50 a month for softened water for a family of three plus watering of a large yard. The neighbor doesn't like it, maybe she should come up with the detailed investigation and analysis of all of the above.
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LOL
You have even more "ifs" than assumptions, and ZERO facts.
It is not hard to come up with some of these facts.
And, you suggest that the person owing OP money should be the one to do the work and come up with the right number? Ya think she might low ball it? Just maybe? You think she won't bother to include capital reserves, etc? Just maybe?
This is a trivial matter.
This is not the same situation. The water guy can sell water to anyone and many people. The OP is limited to one customer and he has to be the guy who lives next door. And the plan when the house was split was for the guy next door to share water expenses. But it probably won't go to court so we'll never know. You can have the last word.
It's not a trivial matter, unless you think rewiring several circuits with a power meter or putting them all on a separate utility service and installing two water flow meters is "trivial". Even if the OP can legally do that himself and has the necessary skills, it's not trivial. As to the neighbor coming up with a low number, sure she can do that, she in fact already has, so too can the OP come up with some bogus high number. I do have some facts. I've owned homes, paid for wells, pumps and municipal water service. And $50 isn't an unreasonable fee for water service for a household with 3 people that includes not only softened water, but also half the expense for watering a large lawn. The neighbor thought it was OK before closing, then changed her mind 6 months later. If she wanted to argue over how much the costs really are, she should have brought it up then instead of agreeing, then reneging. At which point, the OP could have said that if she wants to figure it out to that level of accuracy, then *she* will have to pay for the work involved because in his opinion, what he's already providing, the work he's doing eg being responsible for the system, running the softener, dragging the bags home, paying for them, etc is worth $50 a month just by itself.
It's not a trivial matter, unless you think rewiring several circuits with a power meter or putting them all on a separate utility service and installing two water flow meters is "trivial".
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you can use an hour meter or two.
-------------------- Even if the OP can legally do that himself and has the necessary skills, it's not trivial. As to the neighbor coming up with a low number, sure she can do that, she in fact already has, so too can the OP come up with some bogus high number. I do have some facts. I've owned homes, paid for wells, pumps and municipal water service. And $50 isn't an unreasonable fee for water service for a household with 3 people that includes not only softened water, but also half the expense for watering a large lawn. The neighbor thought it was OK before closing, then changed her mind 6 months later. If she wanted to argue over how much the costs really are, she should have brought it up then instead of agreeing, then reneging. At which point, the OP could have said that if she wants to figure it out to that level of accuracy, then *she* will have to pay for the work involved because in his opinion, what he's already providing, the work he's doing eg being responsible for the system, running the softener, dragging the bags home, paying for them, etc is worth $50 a month just by itself.
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And then the neighbor doesn't do it and pays nothing. Gets you nowhere. And the neighbor has done some sort of calculation, looked up charts. But OP is having none of it - a number pulled out of his butt is good enough!
What happens when repairs re needed? The neighbor would say that was all included in the $50. And there are no calculations or other data to refute it. $50 per month may be too low to cover all aspects of this situation. But that is just another thought pulled out of the butt.
The real problem here is the OP is not telling us stuff. I bet there is a recorded document regarding the well and shared lawn, etc. There must be. And what else is she reneging on? He said she was "reneging on everything".
Too hard to work with a guy like that. Tell all, or get no help.
We will never know not because it won't get to court, but because the OP is withholding information from us. he just wants someone to tell him what he wants to be told, so he is skewing the question and not giving us the facts.
I didn't say they were exactly the same thing, only that there are people here saying that this contract binds the two parties forever, because no time period was specified. And the example I gave is one where similarly no time period was specified, so are the parties there responsible for that contract forever? If the homeowner decides he doesn't like the water after two weeks, does he have to keep taking it?
We presume that's true, but we don't know the actual history or what's in the master deed, etc.
But it probably won't go to
From what I've heard so far, I wouldn't be so sure. Plenty of cases like this wind up in court. He says they are no longer on speaking terms. And contrary to what some people say, I don't see accurately monitoring the actual usage, determining how to split not only the costs of electric, but the fair cost of the existing investment, maintenance, etc. as trivial. It's not trivial from the monitoring eqpt that would be required, nor is it trivial to get parties that are no longer talking to agree on the other numbers that have great variability. Their best bet might be arbitration, if they can agree to that.
Speaking of the utility company, I wonder what their minimum =
monthly charge is.
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Using Opera's mail client:
shhh! That's a secret. The OP doesn't want to tell us!
Use hour meters. Take a month of data. You know how many hours the sprinklers run, so do some math. There are to be found typical household water usage numbers for one person and a family of three.
There are numbers to be found re how long a water well system will work before needing repairs and replacements. Do a reserve study, like condos all do (some much poorer than others). Build reserves from each party into the monthly cost, and keep track of what is in the reserve account, what is spent from the reserve account. If the reserve runs out of money, collect more from both parties.
That is a start, and not all that hard. This is what will be done, after all the hand wringing and saying it can't be done. It can be done now, or spend more money and go to arbitration and then do it. Or spend even more money and go to court, and THEN do it. Just do it!
And, do the hour meter and math four times a year, to account for seasonal variations. Once you have that done, you only need to re do it if there are significant changed circumstances.
The OP has pissed off his neighbor, and he is not telling us about that. He is pissing me off too.
An hour meter doesn't account for the differing water usage between houses, how much is going for lawn watering versus to either party directly, etc. Nor does it show the electric power used. As Ed pointed out, you can buy actual power meters.
Weren't you the one that said it was trivial?
Weren't you the one that said it was trivial?
I had brought that up and the reply was that it was spelled out, but like you say, nothing beyond that.
Yeah, I agree, we're only getting one side and a lot of info is lacking. I also think that him saying that the front lawn is being watered 2 or 3 times a day probably has a lot to do with it. I can picture the neighbor watching that, thinking it's nuts, which it almost surely is, and figuring she's paying for it.
The "reneging on everything" I would take to mean that she simply stopped paying altogether. A decent person would be at least paying something towards it. And if it gets to court, that's always an indication of who the real skunk is.
you can make some calculations. you can make some assumptions, based on fact. you can do some math.
it is trivial
it is trivial
I don't think that is what "reneging on everything" means. There is a lot to sharing property like this, and she is telling him some of his rules make no sense and are not fair. He is probably treating her as the ugly stepchild, when in fact they are to be treated equally.
He has said he has gone to a lawyer, so he can pay and then do what needs to be done - which is more than just using a number pulled out of someone's butt.
Why do you not get separate electric meters? That seems logical to me. Watering 2-3x a day is nuts....NO lawn should be watered like that. Twice weekly, even in sunny Florida with sandy soil is plenty....you should look up your city or county agricultural extension service and read up on lawn care. Even in hottest dryest weather in Florida, watering 2x week is plenty....grass can look wilty in extreme weather but 2x keeps it going. Don't mow too short, don't fertilize during stressful weather. With a "very large" yard, you probably will be ahead if you convert some of the lawn grass to more tolerant, less thirsty plants.
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