You will never understand while you insist on quoting generalised rubbish. The neutral is often grounded for safety reasons but except SWER systems (rare as they are) the mud is NOT used to carry any real part of the circuit. :-? In case you did not realise proof of NEGATIVES is very often hard to find in any field of endevour. :-?
As I said way back in the beginning of this long thread-- GO to a real College and learn the principles of Electricity :-?
Did you READ the Preamble to that paper you are quoting??
The NEC, National Electrical Code(Ref.4) requires the installation of grounds for safety and does NOT allow load currents in ground lines.
Ther is your proof. The NEC is the Electrical BIBLE :')
Harold W. expressed precisely :
You are as dumb as the OP Danny >:|
In Delta configuration there is NO Neutral so whats you point.
The POwer generator almost always uses DELTA configuration of the HV and Vvery HV lines with only 3 three wires.
The last leg from the local substation to the street transformers (POLE PIG) will likely be WYE so that each PP only gets a phase and neutral to convert to 240 volts centre tapped.
We had it well inside the city but it was about 50 years ago.
You've never seen a delta? HV lines are often deltas. There really isn't any need to carry a neutral around. It cost$.
I think you have that backwards. There is no reason to ground reference the source but there is at the substation. It has to be for the next level. Doing it that way reduces Earth currents, too.
Sure, but from the substation the other way, it's likely a delta. Neutrals are expensive and really not needed.
There is a static line above most HV transmission lines but it is not a neutral.
Look on the manufacturers name plate...you'll likely see that it is single phase.
L1 to L2 is 240 volt single phase. The center / neutral tap is not needed for 240 volt service.
The 2 phase claim is bogus.
Beware of trolls.
I don't know why NEC would be covered in any engineering coursework. It has no relevance.
Yes, I'm closer to microwatts than megawatts. My entire family are power engineers, though. I got a lot of it by osmosis, which is as close as I ever wanted to get to that stuff. ;-)
That's the way I see it. I believe she's been slandered.
Bon Jur!
It is "distribution" untill it enters the building., or mast.
"Many national electrical regulations (notably the U.S.) require a metallic return line from the load to the generator. In these jurisdictions, each SWER line must be approved by exception."
No, he's not.
He's talking about the return though the Earth (capital 'E'). That just doesn't happen to any degree.
Then you're screwed. Really bizarre things happen. BTDT.
Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120.
Not without that center tap connected to the neutral, it wouldn't.
I'm not sure what you're saying, now. You said the center-tapped transformer wasn't necessary. If you mean that only the ground bond from the center tap to ground was unnecessary, well, yeah, if you don't mind electrocution.
OK... (gotta see where this is going...)
OK, but why>
Of course not. Starting with one phase you can only have one phase. You can't make another. With two phases, you can make any number you want, though.
No, they're in phase, just like they are with the classical Edison connection. That's what Trader can't get through his skull.
Single.
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
limited]
U.S.
Maybe you need to look again at the title of the thread -- which has been *entirely* about how service entrances are wired.
Bare neutrals on service entrances are very common, your delusions to the contrary notwithstanding.
low along the neutral wire.
ry for a second.
zero reference. But that technically is not necessary. Your house would work fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your light s 120. The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of your equipment and ground.
y be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" term inal.
Tell that to the IEEE power engineers. From the absract of a paper present ed at a recent IEEE conference of power engineers:
"Distribution engineers have treated the standard "singlephase" distributio n transformer connection as single phase because from the primary side of t he transformer these connections are single phase and in the case of standa rd rural distribution single phase line to ground. However, with the advent of detailed circuit modeling we are beginning to see distribution modeling and analysis being accomplished past the transformer to the secondary. Whi ch now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary system s are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three wire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the secon dary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separated by 120 degrees."
I'm still waiting for you to explain your definition of the word phase. Should be easy, as it's a very basic engineering term. If you know what it is, then why can't you define it?
And how exactly is that? He claimed that the earth is used as the return path for delivering poser. That isn't anywhere close to being "almost right".
ow along the neutral wire.
Most of the current doesn't even have to flow on the neutral back to the power plant. Look at a balanced 3 phase load. What does the world loo k like to the power plant?
Why not?
y for a second.
zero reference. But that technically is not necessary. Your house would w ork fine without it. Your oven would still "see" 240 volts and your lights 120. The problem is you might have a voltage difference between some of y our equipment and ground.
That is correct.
be tapped at 60, 120, 180 and 240 volts referenced from tap to "low" termi nal.
Now you've gone off the rails and I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Somehow you're conflating too seperate discussions here. One is the concept of the phases present in a split-phase service. The other is whether the earth is a return path used for power delivery. The two have nothing to do with each other.
Well that'a a good point too. You're right. I was giving Danny the benefit of the doubt that the piece he keeps referencing from "How stuff works", was included as part of the course at Smith College. But you're right, from the link provided, it just shows that it's hosted at the college. Not sure by who or for what purpose. It's also worth noting that Smith is pretty much a liberal arts college, not an engineering power house.
It looks like a lot of people have glommed on to that piece. Probably because it readily comes up when you do a search for that kind of thing, it appears to be a nice short tutorial on the subject. But as you say, it's seriously flawed. The sad thing is that Danny seemed to finally get the idea of the difference between netural and ground in a residential service.
You and I have pointed out inconsistencies in that piece, eg, interchanging usage of ground and neutral, saying that power is transmitted via 3 phase and a 4th neutral/ground and then saying power relies on the earth for return. You would hope that he could start to think in terms of what he learned about neutral and ground in a 240/120V service and start to question that piece himself.
A good question he should ask himself is, if using the earth is how it's done for power transmission, then why isn't it also done for that 240/120V service? Why use a neutral at all? The transformer and house are both connected via earth, so just get rid of all the neutrals. Think of the cost savings...... So, why do we have a neutral in the 240/120V service?
Note: For the less informend, I'm only suggesting he think about that as a rhetorical question.
LOL.
To be totally fair, this turkey has been all over the map.
As for LIMITED experience, I've worked on electrical systems in 3 very widely differing areas of the world - east/central Africa, West Africa, and Canada - both rural and urban.
Nice find. I concur with your assessment. And I'd say a paper from an IEEE fellow trumps "How stuff works".
Doh! Nice find.
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