How difficult is it to "build" a door?

[trader4]

Use 3 envelopes to see the geometry. Put one on a table, facing the long way. That's will represent the left side of the jamb. Leave a gap to the right of that envelope the width of an envelope and put down the second envelope. So now you have the door opening between those two envelopes.

Now use the short side of the third envelope to represent the door. Position it so that it's in the opening, tight, all the envelopes are just touching. You will see that if the "door" only extends into the opening a little bit, when you pivot it to represent opening, it only takes a little clearance for the far side of the door on the side opposite the hinges to clear the opening. Now move the door envelope so it's way inside the other two envelopes that represent the door opening. Try pivoting it again, the same way to represent opening. Unless you increase the size of the opening, the far side of the "door" on the side away from the hinges will hit the door opening.

The extent of the issue depends on the geometry. For the small change in door thickness he's talking about, it could very well be so small that the door will still open. But if it hits, then all that's needed is to remove maybe 1/8" of material from the side.

[DerbyDad03]

I don't have any envelopes present, but I do have a door.

To state my "attach a 4 x 4" example in a simpler way, try this:

Stand on the side of a door that opens in. "Thicken" the door by placing your hand on the interior face on the non-hinge side, essentially forcing the interior face of the door (the back of your hand) further into the room, beyond the jamb.

Now open the door, towards you, of course. now close the door.

Did any part of the door or your hand ever touch the inside of the jamb? I think not. Don't see how it could.

If you replace a 1.25" door with a 1.75" door so that the extra 1/2" is inside the room - and hinge it correctly - how is anything on the non-hinge side going to hit the jamb?

[trader4]

e:

Of course it would because the door is PIVOTING, not coming straight out. The back side of that 4x4 would hit the door jamb and that would be it. As soon as the door starts to pivot, the back of the side without the hinges moves slightly to the right. It's just a fraction of an inch, but the clearance between door and jamb must allow for it. So, if you had just enough clearance for a 1.5" door and you put in say a 3" door, it would hit and not open.

It hits because the door does not open straight out. If the door came straight out on both sides, then the door would clear with just a tiny gap, say 1/64". But it pivots on an angle bringing the backside on the side away from the hinges closer to the door opening. And the thicker the door the further to the side the far side of the door will be before it clears the edge of the jamb.

Imagine you were moving a bed that is 6 inches thick through a doorway, in the same position as a door would be, ie vertical. The bed is only 1/8 inch narrower all the way around than the door opening. Positioned perfectly straight, in the plane of the opening, it goes through, right?

Now when the bed is fully inside the opening and just about to come out the other side, what happens if you try to rotate the bed slightly? The door hits the sides of the openings. Now imagine if the bed were only 1" thick. The same thing would happen but it would hit the sides less when rotated. That is the effect I think he's talking about and it does require more clearance side to side the thicker the door.

There might be enough extra space in his case that going from 1.25" to 1.75" it still works. But figuring out if there is or not apparently has him in a knot. I prefer to avoid the drama, which is why a pre-hung works for me :)

You can also use credit cards to do the simulation instead of envelopes.

[DerbyDad03]

You have absolutely lost me. Maybe we aren't looking at the door in the same way.

Let's get our orientation correct:

"the back of the side without the hinges"

To me this means:

I am standing inside of a room. The lockset (L) is on my left, the hinges (H) are on my right. The door opens towards me, thus I can see the pin side of the hinges (HP) If I grab the door handle and pull, the door will open in towards me, exposing the edge of the door which we are calling the "thickness"

If this picture posts correctly, the L for lockset is located in the area that you refer to as "the back of the side without the hinges".

--------- | | | HP | | |L | | HP | |

---------

Is that correct?

[DerbyDad03]

This is the point upon which our thoughts differ. I was going to respond to your other post about my hand experiment being wrong, but I wanted to wait until the GG delay passed and you had a chance to read the above description. As long as we are looking at this from the same vantage point, we can go on.

Take a look at this picture:

We are looking at "the back of the side without the hinges", correct? ( I can't access these pictures at work so I couldn't post that earlier)

OK, so we are looking at the interior face of the door. It appears to be flush with the edge of framing, so let's call it so.

We can also assume that the exterior face of the door is up against the exterior stops and can go no further "forward" i.e. away from where we're standing.

You are standing 3 feet from the door - don't move.

I am now going to hang a 1/2" thicker door, making sure that the exterior face is up against the exterior stops as before.

How far from the door are you now? 2 feet 11 1/2 inches, right?

The interior face has moved back into the room, extending beyond the framing.

Since all of the extra material is inside the room, how is it going to prevent the door from opening?

[dadiOH]

Or bevel it which is SOP.

[dadiOH]

a square + b square = c square.

a = width b = thickness c = hypotenuse

[dadiOH]

Because the distance from the pivot point to the back outside edge is greater than that from the pivot point to the inside edge.

Good god, man, have you never beveled a door edge???

[DerbyDad03]

:-)

[clare]

Heck, I could have built AND hung at least 10.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, Indeed. Lot of people think time is not money.

[G. Morgan]

I would have hung all overheads!

[trader4]

No. I believe from his photos the door opens into the garage. The hinges are on the door inside the garage and that is what we're looking at in the above picture.

Well, yeah if you somehow hang the door with the extra thickness so that instead of being inside the door jambs, as it should be, the extra part sticks out into the garage. But I would hope that is not how you'd hang a door.

That only works IF you put the extra thickness on the hinge side, with the thickness sticking out into the room. And then the hinges would wind up mounted not where they normally are, ie at the edge of the door, but instead the pivot point would be back toward the middle of the door. It sure would look bizarre. The door is supposed to sit inside the door opening, not extend beyond it.

Instead of looking at his door, just look at a how you deal with a door in general. Use some credit cards to simulate the opening and the door.

Or how about this. Visualize a 2 x 4 laying flat. Imagine taking a saw, cutting out a 2 foot section in the middle. Now, I can slide that middle section out if I just pull it straight out, like a plug. But that isn't how a door works. It has to pivot. What happens if I try to pivot it and open it like a door would open in a doorway? It won't open, because it needs CLEARANCE. When you try to pivot it, it hits. How far apart would you have to move the other 2 x 4 pieces to make the opening larger so it could pivot? Quite a ways, because the 2 x 4 is 3.5" deep into the opening.

Now simulate a narrow door, by making the middle piece less deep, only 1/2" deep. Now you could make the opening much smaller and the middle piece would still have room to pivot. In other words, the thicker the door the wider the opening must be for it to clear.

Again, if he's adding only 1/2", then there may be enough extra clearance already that it won't matter.

[DanG]

If you truly want a simple fix why don't you add a turnbuckle to the existing door to remove and stop the sagging? They cost about $10.

I doubt that your door is 1 1/4 ". A normal sized door is 1 3/8 or 1 3/4