It is functionally identical, so long as the neutral isn't broken. They connect to the same terminal strip at the breaker box, after all. If the neutral is broken, of course, all bets are off, and this is why I brought it up in the first place.
nate
bareceptables 20 amp all by itself GFCI
hair dryers and curling irons are energy piggies.
refrigerator 20 amp all by itself. you dont want something tripping fridge circuit NO GFCI!
kitchen at least one but preferably 2 20 amp receptable circuits GFCI! gas stove must be GFCI protected.
furnace its own 15 or 20 amp circuit. dont want a nuisance trip freezing home...
washer and dryer together on their own circuit
this is a starting place for electrical upgrades..........
I prefer but dont have each rooms receptables on their own breaker.
aone or two circuits for just lights is ideal, minimizes trips by overloads
bareceptables 20 amp all by itself GFCI
hair dryers and curling irons are energy piggies.
refrigerator 20 amp all by itself. you dont want something tripping fridge circuit NO GFCI!
kitchen at least one but preferably 2 20 amp receptable circuits GFCI! gas stove must be GFCI protected.
furnace its own 15 or 20 amp circuit. dont want a nuisance trip freezing home...
washer and dryer together on their own circuit
this is a starting place for electrical upgrades..........
I prefer but dont have each rooms receptables on their own breaker.
aone or two circuits for just lights is ideal, minimizes trips by overloads
What?
That's EXACTLY the situation being discussed.
Doesn't matter. The rules are the the ground and neutral are bonded at the service entrance or the breaker box. Not afterward.
It's no longer code but most older homes with an electric dryer or an electric stove used a three wire plug. The neutral was connected to the chassis of the dryer or stove. In new installations the chassis is connected to a separate ground wire. In theory the "new way" is safer, in practice it doesn't make any difference but electricians don't have a choice.
The basic idea behind the grounding scheme is that the protective ground only carries fault currents.
No, it is *not*, as I just pointed out. You seem to be unaware that the neutral wire carries current. If the ground and neutral are interconnected at the receptacle, anyone simultaneously touching the metal chassis of any equipment plugged into that outlet, and anything else that's grounded (e.g. a water pipe or faucet, or simply standing on a concrete floor) makes a parallel path to ground for the current in the neutral conductor -- and enough current can pass through that person's body to cause a significant danger.
And that is the *only* place that they are permitted by Code to be connected. The Code _explicitly_prohibits_ interconnections anywhere else. Do you suppose there might actually be a reason for that, or do you think they just did that at random?
Ummmmmm.... maybe I missed it, but where did the original post make any mention of GFCIs??
Yeah. Most just use an ungrounded (2 prong) plug and some have a GFCI built into the plug assembly.
I have run refrigerators on a GFCI circuit because the outlet was on a counter and I wanted all counter outlets protected. An old fridge tripped out once a year or so (I think during defrost some water got onto the quartz heater wiring) but when we replaced it with a new model (10 years ago) it didn't trip. For my money, a modern fridge would not trip a GFCI unless there is something WRONG!
I had a dishwasher on a GFCI but when the door seal leaked the water got the heater terminals wet. Again, it was reasonable to cut the circuit when water was getting into the wires.
Yes but the main reason is the "convenience" outlet.
Why would it trip?
I have a clothes washer on a GFCI circuit (it's a duplex outlet and something else may be plugged into it.) I know that the washer is supposed to be on it's own circuit but ...
Now that you got me going, I wonder whether the over the oven microwave would trip a GFCI. I don't think it would.
Our last two places had one circuit PER ROOM. Any trip kills everything (including lights) in the entire room.
Frankly, we just don't trip the CBs very often. Before I put in the over the oven microwave, we had a coffee maker, toaster, popcorn popper, and microwave on one table. We had to remember to turn off the coffee maker if we were using the toaster and the microwave at the same time. I think the coffee maker and the toaster will still trip a CB every few months.
>No but you could pull a bare ground around to each box. How's the access?
Would you care to quote chapter and verse on your assertion that the Gas Stove must be GFCI protected.
Nate Those boot leg ground connections are a real danger. If any part of the neutral conductor fails the metal shell of any grounded appliance downstream of the open conductor will be energized through the connected loads to 120 volts. Removing the bootleg grounds and installing ground fault circuit interuptor protection on the affected circuits should be your first order of business. That will provide safety to humans but not to solid state electronics until you can upgrade the wiring.
Have your home warranty contract reviewed by a competent attorney. If it has coverage for concealed defect it may cover the steps I have outlined.
Knob and tube went out before the 1940's in almost all parts of the United States which is where the OP is from, I think.
H. R. (Bob) Hofmann
You are on the right track to just add the ground wire where possible, it is much easier. My wife has, over the years, become extremely adept at grabbing fishtapes in wall cavities with bent coathangers. WIthout her help, I would still be doing some projects that have been completed years ago. I prefer metal boxes with ears that pull out when the screws at the side of the box are tightened. The plastic boxes with the tabs that rotate out don't have as much area pushing against the back of the sheetrock/plaster as the flat tabs on the metal boxes. Also, the plastic boxes do distort their shape a little while the metal boxes are more rigid.
H. R. (Bob) Hofmann
Where do you find metal old work boxes? My local "big box" hardware stores do not have them, although I've seen some of the contractors I work with using them, I believe they get them from supply houses where they have accounts.
nate
Negative. K&T was used up until almost 1950 in rural areas and actually was overlapped by the early romex. The house i grew up in was K&T and was built in '45. The house I'm rebuilding right now was wired in the early '40's and has cloth romex. Not a knob or tube in sight. Google 'knob and tube' for more info than you want to know.
Lowes and Home depot both sell them. As do most all other hardware stores.
Don't have a Lowe's, but Home Despot doesn't have them, at least not out and on the shelf. Unfortunately the quality of help at Home Despot is... not so good, so they look at me blankly when I ask questions.
nate
Steve Barker LT wrote:
Nate You are just looking for metal boxes with no permanently mounted brackets. They must have the plaster ears at the top and bottom of the box. You don't need the ones with built in plaster clamps. Just buy as many pairs of Madison Straps as you have boxes to install. You can see a picture of a pair of them at
I haunt non-big-box hardware stores.
Bob Hofmann
I haunt non-big-box hardware stores.
Bob Hofmann
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