house wired without separate ground - problem?

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N8N wrote:

Nate You are just looking for metal boxes with no permanently mounted brackets. They must have the plaster ears at the top and bottom of the box. You don't need the ones with built in plaster clamps. Just buy as many pairs of Madison Straps as you have boxes to install. You can see a picture of a pair of them at <
http://www.capeelectric.com/marion/images/raco/rac98.jpg
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
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N8N wrote:

I haunt non-big-box hardware stores.
Bob Hofmann
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N8N wrote:

I haunt non-big-box hardware stores.
Bob Hofmann
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No but you could pull a bare ground around to each box. How's the access?
--
Steve Barker


"Nate Nagel" < snipped-for-privacy@flycast.net> wrote in message
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Bob F wrote:

Knob and tube went out before the 1940's in almost all parts of the United States which is where the OP is from, I think.
H. R. (Bob) Hofmann
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Negative. K&T was used up until almost 1950 in rural areas and actually was overlapped by the early romex. The house i grew up in was K&T and was built in '45. The house I'm rebuilding right now was wired in the early '40's and has cloth romex. Not a knob or tube in sight. Google 'knob and tube' for more info than you want to know.
--
Steve Barker



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mention

than
grounding,
My first house, built in 1948, had knob and tube.
Bob
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Electrical really isn't that difficult for a homeowner to do. You can get a book on how to do it at the local library. I am a sheetmetal man and I rewired my whole house without any problems and it passed the city inspection with ease. It had four fuses for the whole house. I ripped out the fuse panel and replaced it with circuit breakers. I had a ranch type home and that made it easier.
If you are talking first floor, I would pull the receptacle, and then go into the basement and drill a hole through the floor and sill plate into the wall now run new wire through the hole and pull it out through where the receptical was removed. They have new plastic boxes that can go right back into the hole with no nailing required. As you tighten a screw, a plastic flag flips out and secures the box to the drywall. Then run that wire under the the floor to the box and hook it up.
If you are talking the second floor, it is pretty much the same, but I would go up to the attic.
If you have any other questions, just ask Pat
Nate Nagel wrote:

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wrote:

No, it isn't, not even theoretically. This makes it possible for the chassis of any piece of equipment plugged into the outlet to become electrically live, and it's not at all safe.

Should bother you _a_lot_.

No way.

No.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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wrote:

chassis
live,
If the two wire circuit (w/o ground) is protected by a GFCI, it's quite safe. Under some circumstances it is more safe than a grounded outlet without a GFCI.
If you have an old house replacing behind the wall wiring just to get "grounds" isn't necessary. If you are knocking out walls and/or adding new circuits you new wiring should meet code but so long as you have GFCI protection, there is no reason to fear for your safety with old wiring w/o ground. BUT you should "test" your GFCI using the build in test button. An external GFCI tester will not trip an ungrounded GFCI outlet.
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Well, yes -- but that's not the situation that was being discussed here.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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bareceptables 20 amp all by itself GFCI
hair dryers and curling irons are energy piggies.
refrigerator 20 amp all by itself. you dont want something tripping fridge circuit NO GFCI!
kitchen at least one but preferably 2 20 amp receptable circuits GFCI! gas stove must be GFCI protected.
furnace its own 15 or 20 amp circuit. dont want a nuisance trip freezing home...
washer and dryer together on their own circuit
this is a starting place for electrical upgrades..........
I prefer but dont have each rooms receptables on their own breaker.
aone or two circuits for just lights is ideal, minimizes trips by overloads
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Yeah. Most just use an ungrounded (2 prong) plug and some have a GFCI built into the plug assembly.

I have run refrigerators on a GFCI circuit because the outlet was on a counter and I wanted all counter outlets protected. An old fridge tripped out once a year or so (I think during defrost some water got onto the quartz heater wiring) but when we replaced it with a new model (10 years ago) it didn't trip. For my money, a modern fridge would not trip a GFCI unless there is something WRONG!
I had a dishwasher on a GFCI but when the door seal leaked the water got the heater terminals wet. Again, it was reasonable to cut the circuit when water was getting into the wires.

Yes but the main reason is the "convenience" outlet.

Why would it trip?

I have a clothes washer on a GFCI circuit (it's a duplex outlet and something else may be plugged into it.) I know that the washer is supposed to be on it's own circuit but ...
Now that you got me going, I wonder whether the over the oven microwave would trip a GFCI. I don't think it would.

Our last two places had one circuit PER ROOM. Any trip kills everything (including lights) in the entire room.

Frankly, we just don't trip the CBs very often. Before I put in the over the oven microwave, we had a coffee maker, toaster, popcorn popper, and microwave on one table. We had to remember to turn off the coffee maker if we were using the toaster and the microwave at the same time. I think the coffee maker and the toaster will still trip a CB every few months.

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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Would you care to quote chapter and verse on your assertion that the Gas Stove must be GFCI protected.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
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bareceptables 20 amp all by itself GFCI
hair dryers and curling irons are energy piggies.
refrigerator 20 amp all by itself. you dont want something tripping fridge circuit NO GFCI!
kitchen at least one but preferably 2 20 amp receptable circuits GFCI! gas stove must be GFCI protected.
furnace its own 15 or 20 amp circuit. dont want a nuisance trip freezing home...
washer and dryer together on their own circuit
this is a starting place for electrical upgrades..........
I prefer but dont have each rooms receptables on their own breaker.
aone or two circuits for just lights is ideal, minimizes trips by overloads
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What?
That's EXACTLY the situation being discussed.
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Ummmmmm.... maybe I missed it, but where did the original post make any mention of GFCIs??
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

It is functionally identical, so long as the neutral isn't broken. They connect to the same terminal strip at the breaker box, after all. If the neutral is broken, of course, all bets are off, and this is why I brought it up in the first place.
nate
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Doesn't matter. The rules are the the ground and neutral are bonded at the service entrance or the breaker box. Not afterward.
It's no longer code but most older homes with an electric dryer or an electric stove used a three wire plug. The neutral was connected to the chassis of the dryer or stove. In new installations the chassis is connected to a separate ground wire. In theory the "new way" is safer, in practice it doesn't make any difference but electricians don't have a choice.
The basic idea behind the grounding scheme is that the protective ground only carries fault currents.
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wrote:

No, it is *not*, as I just pointed out. You seem to be unaware that the neutral wire carries current. If the ground and neutral are interconnected at the receptacle, anyone simultaneously touching the metal chassis of any equipment plugged into that outlet, and anything else that's grounded (e.g. a water pipe or faucet, or simply standing on a concrete floor) makes a parallel path to ground for the current in the neutral conductor -- and enough current can pass through that person's body to cause a significant danger.

And that is the *only* place that they are permitted by Code to be connected. The Code _explicitly_prohibits_ interconnections anywhere else. Do you suppose there might actually be a reason for that, or do you think they just did that at random?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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