House Painting And Peeling Question

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Hello,
Got to thinking about this a bit, and would be appreciative of any thoughts or opinions on. Probably a dumb question, but was wondering, and concerned.
Will probably have house painted this summer. The typical wooden Colonial Clapboards style. Present, and past paint has been Latex. Hasn't been done in a very long time.
There is paint peeling, "here and there".
So, I guess, we have the Painter scrape where it is peeling, and feather the edges, etc.
But, it is likely, I would imagine, that the adherence of all the present paint to the initial paint job, and to the wood is problematical.
Any new paint, of course, never sees the wood itself, so cannot bond to it. All it can bond to, I imagine, is the paint layer directly under, which I am assuming has a "problematical" bond to the first paint layer and/or the wood.
Am I looking at this correctly ?
This seems like a very typical concern, I would imagine. Nobody wants a new fresh coat of paint to peel due to what it is adhering to starts to peel.
How is this handled ? Sure don't want to try and sand down all of the surface areas; totally impractical.
Thoughts and comments would be most appreciated.
BTW: does pressure washing cause additional peeling ? Good idea to ? Caveats, such as a (very) low pressure, or...?
Thanks, Bob
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On 4/28/2014 11:36 AM, Bob wrote:

Is peeling mainly at ends of boards and joints? That is likely, and due to moisture getting into the end grain. I have wood siding, but not clapboard. First, I would prep/paint in dry weather; fall is best, IMP. Scrape the loose paint and don't worry about what is adhering. After scraping, prime bare wood. After priming, caulk joints, gaps between siding where it meets doors, windows, plumbing/elect. entries. Paint within two/three days of priming.
Pressure washing is routine with concrete block/stucco but I don't believe it is with wood. Washing is important. Paint the side not exposed to sun, withing temp limits on label.
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On Monday, April 28, 2014 11:36:49 AM UTC-4, Bob wrote:

It's not unusual to have some paint peeling. If it's in certain areas, you should try to identify why it's happening. Moisture getting behind the wood is the biggest reason.

For removing peeling paint, by far the best thing I've ever seen is a Wagner Paint Eater. It's like a circular sander or grinder, but the head is a tough composite material, kind of like a super tough version of one of the scrubber pads for pots. It quickly takes the loose paint off and unlike a sander, doesn't clog up, so you can just keep going.
Another great product is XIM peel bond. The name is a bit misleading. It won't bond peeling paint. But it's a very thick self-leveling primer. The idea is that it helps smooth out the transitions from the areas with sound paint to the lower spots where the paint is gone. The bare wood should be primed anyway. If you use this stuff, it helps level it back out. It still wont be perfect, but it will be a lot less noticeable.

It's basically correct. You hope that the remaining paint stays intact.

Any paint that comes off with power washing you want to come off, because it's ready to come off anyway. Painters do have to be careful not to use too much pressure, because that can damage the wood. I recommend using Jomax as the cleaner. It works well, has a mildewcide in it too.

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Well, not _totally_ impractical. My neighbor took his entire 2 story colonial down to the bare cedar singles, then primed and painted, 2 coats. He used a heat coil and a scraper, a sanding disk on a drill, a right angle grinder, whatever it took to get to wherever he was trying to get.
10 years later he sanded about 50% down to the bare shingles, primed the entire house and changed the color, again using 2 coats.
After the second time he said it was his last time. Of course, he said the same thing after the first time, but we're all a bit older now, so I believe him.

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the paint job will cost a fortune if theres any lead based paint on your home.
no sanding permitted, since it can spread lead dust, all debris must be captured and disposed of properly.
I warned a buddy of mine about the new laws, he put the job off and costs doubled, he refused to get his home painted...
so just be prepared for some shocking costs, might be better to get home sided, soffit and fascia covered etc
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Some peeling is typical. You just scrape off what's loose, wash, and then prime the bare areas. You should really prime with a good linseed oil primer. If it's latex paint now you can use either more latex/acrylic paint or water-base "stain".
Pressure washing can cause more peeling, yes. Depending on the surface, it can get in under the edges and cause further peeling later.
In any case, if you don't trust the painter to make these decisions then you might want to find another painter.
| Hello, | | Got to thinking about this a bit, and would be appreciative of any | thoughts or opinions on. | Probably a dumb question, but was wondering, and concerned. | | Will probably have house painted this summer. | The typical wooden Colonial Clapboards style. | Present, and past paint has been Latex. | Hasn't been done in a very long time. | | There is paint peeling, "here and there". | | So, I guess, we have the Painter scrape where it is peeling, and feather | the edges, etc. | | But, it is likely, I would imagine, that the adherence of all the | present paint to the initial paint job, and to the wood is problematical. | | Any new paint, of course, never sees the wood itself, so cannot bond to | it. All it can bond to, I imagine, is the paint layer directly under, | which I am assuming has a "problematical" bond to the first paint layer | and/or the wood. | | Am I looking at this correctly ? | | This seems like a very typical concern, I would imagine. | Nobody wants a new fresh coat of paint to peel due to what it is | adhering to starts to peel. | | How is this handled ? | Sure don't want to try and sand down all of the surface areas; totally | impractical. | | Thoughts and comments would be most appreciated. | | BTW: does pressure washing cause additional peeling ? | Good idea to ? | Caveats, such as a (very) low pressure, or...? | | Thanks, | Bob | | --- | This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. | http://www.avast.com |
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| the paint job will cost a fortune if theres any lead based paint on your home. |
That statement needs to be detailed a bit. The new law applies to houses built after 1979 only. The requirements can add to the cost of the job, but not necessarily a lot. The biggest factor is the extreme use of ground coverings and cleanup required.
Also, there's an exemption clause. I needed to know about this law for my own work as a contractor, so I got a copy of it. There are a lot of informational brochures available, but they only provide a general explanation and are more scare tactics than informational. Specifically, in all the information I found, nowhere was the exemption mentioned. I only know about it because I read the actual law. I ended up creating my own legal form for people to sign, exempting the job from the extreme deleading-like treatment detailed in the law, as long as certain conditions are met. With most of my work I can use this form. I've pasted the most relevant parts below, which is enough to explain the details and links where anyone can confirm the text of the law for themselves:
------------------------------------------------------ I confirm that the following statements are true:
1) I own and occupy the property.
2) There are no children under 6 years old currently living on the property.
3) There are no pregnant women currently living on the property.
4) I understand that the work will be done without following the restrictions imposed by the
Federal Renovation, Repair, and Painting Program.
Owner signature:______________________________________________ Date: ____________________
This form is to confirm an exception from work requirements and restrictions for carpentry, painting and other similar renovation work, according to the following EPA Regulation:
Lead; Renovation, Repair, and Painting Program
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
40 CFR Part 745
In accord with the following specification:
"Finally, this regulation contains an exception for renovations in owner-occupied target housing where no child under age 6 or pregnant woman resides, so long as the housing does not meet the definition of "child-occupied facility". To claim this exception, the renovation firm must obtain, before beginning the renovation, a signed statement from the owner of the housing that states that the person signing is the owner of the housing to be renovated, that he or she resides there,
that no child under age 6 or pregnant woman resides there, that the housing is not a child-occupied facility, and that the owner understands that the renovation firm will not be required to use the work practices contained in this rule."
http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-TOX/2008/April/Day-22/t8141.htm
In accord with the following requirements:
745.86 Recordkeeping and reporting requirements:
(6) Any signed and dated statements received from owner-occupants documenting that the requirements of 745.85 do not apply. These statements must include a declaration that the renovation will occur in the owner's residence, a declaration that no children under age 6 reside there, a declaration that no pregnant woman resides there, a declaration that the housing is not a child-occupied facility, the address of the unit undergoing renovation, the owner's name, an acknowledgment by the owner that the work practices to be used during the renovation will not necessarily include all of the lead-safe work practices contained in EPA's renovation, repair, and painting rule, the signature of the owner, and the date of signature. These statements must be written in the same language as the text of the renovation contract, if any.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c fr&rgn=div5&view=text&node@:30.0.1.1.13&idno@
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On Monday, April 28, 2014 2:02:37 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

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Sorry I believe your mistaken. first the law doesnt matter for any homes bu ilt after 1979 because by that time lead in paint was illegal.but its defin etely applies to all older homes
paintaing the outside of homes with lead pait endangers not only the resid ents but the neighbors.. lots of kids have brain damage from excess exposur e to lead
while there is a exemption to homeowner work thats done only by the homeown er once you involve a contractor or even a handyan the law applies. or even a helper.
the entire area must be tarped to collect all paint chips, no sanding is pe rmitted since it can create dust that becomes airborne.
these necessary laws have greatly increased the cost of repainting.
most around here get vinyl siding so they never have to paint again
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Bob[_44_]:
The standard procedure when repainting a house is to scrape off any paint that's not putting up a respectable fight to stay on the house, then sanding the edges of the sticking paint to eliminate "paint edges" showing through the top coat, priming the bare wood, and repainting.
Your point is well taken that any existing paint that's not sticking well will be the weakest link in the chain. But hopefully any paint that isn't sticking as well as it should would be discovered in the scraping phase at the start of the job.
Pressure washing, so far as I know, is a good way to remove any old paint. If the paint will withstand a pressure washing, it's sticking as well as could be expected, and removing it to apply new paint that's not going to stick any better is a waste of time and money.
Your point that the existing paint could start to peel in the future is also well taken. But, since you can't tell where those areas are now, you have no choice except to presume that anything that's sticking well now will stay stuck well. And, if it doesn't, then that paint will be removed the NEXT time you repaint your house.
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...major snippage occurred...

...major snippage occurred...
So it doesn't matter that the houses on all sides of the house being sanded are inhabited by a total of 14 kids age 5 and under and 6 pregnant females? Some city houses are within a few feet of each other. The occupants of those "child-occupied facilities" are not figured into the equation when the exterior of a lead paint covered house is being sanded?
Are you sure that the exception, as posted, applies to the _exterior_ of a house?
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If ir resists scraping it is should be good to go. To assuage any lingering doubt, the house could be sprayed with a thin, acrylic sealer such as SealKrete. Yes, it is primarily for masonry but works well for wood too...if the paint is chalking or otherwise porous it will firm it up nicely; if it penetrates through the paint to the wood it will increase the adhesion of the old paint. _________________

Probably. Which isn't a bad thing.
My house is concrete block & stucco but there is some wood - fascia, etc - which is pressure washed prior to painting. Just be sure all is dry before painting.
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All I can say is read the law. I provided the links.
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| Are you sure that the exception, as posted, applies to the _exterior_ of a | house?
See the text of the law. You don't have to take my word for it. It's true that there could be cases where a house with kids is nearby, but I didn't see anything about that. And the law provides mainly for extensive ground coverage, anyway. There's nothing about not making dust that could float.
There's also an exemption for any situation where there's less than 6 sq. ft. of surface "disturbed" inside. I think the limit is 10 sq. ft. outside.
But it does have to be owner-occupied. An owner can't make that decision for a tenant, and with multiple condos in a single building they don't seem to say. For interior work each condo is a separate unit, so that's OK. But for exterior work I would imagine that all owners must qualify and agree.
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On Monday, April 28, 2014 6:57:16 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

lets imagine a neighborhood with zero kids for 10 blocks.....
so you know threres no kids and ignore the law.
the day you finish scraping sanding etc the home next door gets new residents, with 10 little kids....
they get ill because you didnt follow the law
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ultimately the painting contactor is required to follow the law...
so call some contractors and be prepared for a expensive repaint. or risk getting sued by your neighbors if you dont follow the law..
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these necessary laws have greatly increased the cost of repainting. most around here get vinyl siding so they never have to paint again

Another thought: I think you're overreacting a bit. The whole country is not going to go to vinyl just because of the new lead paint laws. Many can't realistically do that anyway. Vinyl siding is godawful ugly. It can only be used in lower value neighborhoods. (I'm actually looking at a job now where a woman wants to strip off old aluminum siding and rebuild the window trim.)
I saw a house being worked on recently. It was one of those gigantic Victorian types with 4 or 6 apartments. The crew had tacked plastic sheet under the bottom row of clapboard, which hung down in front of the cellar wall and extended out from the house. At the end of the day they have to fold the sheet and dispose of it. It can't be re-used. It's a big hassle, but not prohibitive. Estimates I've seen are that it's likely to add 20% to the cost of a job. The license for it requires about $300 and a one-day workshop. I haven't got the license myself because I just don't want to deal with that kind of hassle, and while I do some painting jobs, what I mostly do is building and renovations where I also do the painting. In many cases there's a demo crew for that, so they're the ones who have to deal with the requirements. Also, as I mentioned above, most of my jobs qualify for the exemption.
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| lets imagine a neighborhood with zero kids for 10 blocks..... | | so you know threres no kids and ignore the law. |
No one is talking about ignoring the law. You keep talking with authority about it, yet you haven't even taken the time to read it. You also are apparently not reading what I've been writing. I have read the law. I'm a contractor and have to deal with these things. If you want to talk about the text of the law then please educate yourself about it first. If you want to talk about what you think the law should be then that's another story.
| the day you finish scraping sanding etc the home next door gets new residents, with 10 little kids.... | they get ill because you didnt follow the law
Do you even have any idea what the law describes?
First of all, there's not a lot of lead paint around these days. I live in a duplex house built in 1835. We renovated the rental side before the new law went into effect and tested for lead. The only lead paint in the interior was the very first layer, next to the original wood. Most of the outside work I do does not have lead paint. There are occasional cases where I suspect lead paint, but not many. I worked on a house recently that was painted with latex. Last fall I restained a house built in 1694. It's never had anything but oil-base stain.
But that aside, the law requires covering the area with plastic and taking great care not to lose any of the paint chips. So it will help to avoid getting paint chips on grounds of the property being painted. It will not affect any dust that happens to drift to the property next door, where your theoretical kids live. How are they going to get sick? By eating the dirt in the yard next door? You're assuming that I'm going to be a slob and scrape with no dropcloth, then the kids are going to come over and eat the paint? What about the tiny bits of peeling paint under the vinyl siding on their own house, dropping occasionally to the ground next to the foundation wall? Do you think you've cured the lead problem by putting a plastic veneer over the old, peeling paint?
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On Monday, April 28, 2014 11:22:36 PM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

A quick search produced this, which sure seems to indicate the exemption you are using was actually eliminated in 2010:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-05-06/html/2010-10100.htm
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
40 CFR Part 745
[EPA-HQ-OPPT-2005-0049; FRL-8823-7] RIN 2070-AJ55
Lead; Amendment to the Opt-Out and Recordkeeping Provisions in the Renovation, Repair, and Painting Program
AGENCY: Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).
ACTION: Final rule.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
SUMMARY: EPA is finalizing several revisions to the Lead Renovation, Repair, and Painting Program (RRP) rule that published in the Federal Register on April 22, 2008. The RRP rule established accreditation, training, certification, and recordkeeping requirements as well as work practice standards on persons performing renovations for compensation in most pre-1978 housing and child-occupied facilities. In this document, EPA is eliminating the ``opt-out'' provision that currently exempts a renovation firm from the training and work practice requirements of the rule where the firm obtains a certification from the owner of a residence he or she occupies that no child under age 6 or pregnant women resides in the home and the home is not a child- occupied facility. EPA is also requiring renovation firms to provide a copy of the records demonstrating compliance with the training and work practice requirements of the RRP rule to the owner and, if different, the occupant of the building being renovated or the operator of the child-occupied facility. In addition, the rule makes minor changes to the certification, accreditation and state authorization requirements.
DATES: This final rule is effective July 6, 2010.
So, it looks like that exemption is gone. I'd also point out that the federal EPA regulations are not the only regulations that govern. States and some cities may have additional requirements.

Apparently he does and he's reasoning sounds reasonable. It seems rather nuts to force someone who has a 5 year old to go through the expense and rigour required to avoid old lead paint debris from flying into the air, while allowing the neighbor's house that is 5ft or less away to choose to exempt themselves, sand away and let the chips fall where they may.

Where did all the lead paint on houses built prior to the 1970's go? It's hard to believe that they were all sanded down to bare wood.

I guess that's part of what the EPA is worried about, because otherwise they wouldn't care what you did with houses that have old lead paint on the exterior. And as Bob pointed out, if you sand the paint, the dust won't just stay right at the house. Many times houses are right next to each other. Seems very reasonable that if you do as you please with a house with lead paint, some of the old lead paint can wind up on the neighbor's property.

I guess you should take that up with the EPA. I think their answer will be that they are trying to minimize any lead paint from making it's way off the house. Some is going to fall off from peeling, but going at a house with lead paint with a scraper and sander is going to release a lot of lead paint that can be contained. Also, the neighbor's house may have been covered with siding and the lead paint is no longer an issue, while someone taking a sander to the lead paint on the house 5 ft away is likely to contaminate their property.
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| Can WE imagine for just a simple moment that the OP's house has no | lead based paint? Imagine that! OP can tell us. No need to make a big | deal of it until he tells us so. |
He's already said that it's latex, but that doesn't actually matter. The new lead paint law applies to any house built before 1979, even if it obviously has no lead paint, unless it's been certified lead-free or deleaded, after being inspected by a licensed deleading company.
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| A quick search produced this, which sure seems to indicate the | exemption you are using was actually eliminated in 2010: | | http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-05-06/html/2010-10100.htm |
Yes, you're right. Thank you. I found the full text of the law in the updated version. There's still an exemption for small areas disturbed (6 sf int, 20 sf ext) and there's still an exemption if paint is tested by someone authorized and found to be conforming in terms of lead content, but the ooption to have the owner sign off is gone.
| Where did all the lead paint on houses built prior to the 1970's go? | It's hard to believe that they were all sanded down to bare wood. |
Much of the wood has just been replaced. I live in New England and there are certainly plenty of old Victorians here with lead paint, but much of the housing stock has been renovated. Lead paint was banned about 35 years ago.
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