Homeopathics exposed - Yay!

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== "Concocted" is the operative word for sure. ==
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Roy wrote:

I really, really try to be precise, but I, even I, sometimes fall short. Like when I used the word "minuscule" and it was pointed out that "minuscule" may be the proper amount. I really intended the thought to mean "indistinguishable from zero," but I failed. Miserably.
No cookie for me tonight.
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Eliminate the ",even I, sometimes" from the sentence and we are in 100% agreement.
R
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RicodJour wrote:

My revised statement then becomes:
"I think you do not grasp the theory behing homeopathy. The theory is that something akin or affiliated with the malady under treatment, when ingested in amounts indistinguishable from zero, will trigger a bodily response to rehabilitate the diseased organ."
I'm about to twitch to death with glee over your agreement.
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The death part sounds interesting but your twitching in glee sounds vaguely sexual and disturbing. :)~
I've already acknowledged that neither I nor anyone else know enough to say any medicine is entirely bogus or entirely infallible. You've already acknowledged that the placebo effect is real. We're already in agreement, though not the one you were looking to twitch over. Sorry.
I'll ask two really simple questions about a simple everyday item that everyone has been intimately familiar with since early childhood to help illustrate my point. What's the healthiest type of bread? What grain, and why? It's clear from your stance on more complicated matters of health and medicine, that absolute certainty is possible, and one type of grain _has_ to be better than another. If you can answer those questions with definitive, verifiable proof, I'll agree that the world is simpler than I thought.
Until then, I'll continue to believe that neither I nor anyone else know it all about anything.
R
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RicodJour wrote:

It must be a lonely religion.
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No, not lonely, but it is a minority. It must keep things simple to be one of those people that have the ability to be certain about things they know nothing about.
Read anything about the Earth's magnetic poles recently? That has me concerned.
R
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RicodJour wrote:

Well, you could move...
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I can't afford the flight. :(
R
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What was in tzi's bag?
R
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I can't speak to the homeopathy guy, and it sounds perfectly plausible, but as to the placebo effect it's everywhere and you see it every day.
In relatively recent news. http://www.rtmagazine.com/news/2011-02-02_01.asp http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/health/news/article_1612187.php/German-physicians-study-placebo-effect http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Menopause/24404 http://www.alaskadispatch.com/voices/medred/8362-placebos-proof-positive-in-power-of-ritual
In personal relations: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-alderman/the-placebo-effect-and-ho_b_818349.html
I find it curious that some people feel that things such as acupuncture and the placebo effect are assaults on science and rationality. My view is that if people who are looking for relief, find it in a placebo effect or anything else, whether it's considered science or not, who cares? If they feel it works, for them, and they feel better for it, why try to argue that it isn't helping them because they don't have scientific proof? That's just cruel and stupid.
There are a number of books on the mind-body connection, and I'd doubt anyone would seriously argue that people that are stressed and depressed don't have higher disease and mortality rates, so I'm not quite sure why someone would argue that a person's beliefs have no effect on other factors related to the body.
http://my.clevelandclinic.org/heart/prevention/alternative/bodymind.aspx
When was the last time that you saw hundreds of nearly universal 5 star ratings on a health book on Amazon? Sarnow has had amazing results with people with debilitating back pain. His method? He talks to them. (Amazon.com product link shortened)
I find it highly amusing that the people that are so positive that there's nothing to it - the people who think they have _really_ strong minds and are skeptics - are actually saying, my mind isn't really that strong.
R
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RicodJour wrote:

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/health/news/article_1612187.php/German-physicians-study-placebo-effect
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/voices/medred/8362-placebos-proof-positive-in-power-of-ritual
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-alderman/the-placebo-effect-and-ho_b_818349.html
Oh, the placebo effect exists.
Suppose I concoct a pill, a sugar pill, and in controlled tests my pill was found to alleviate the symptoms of the common cold in 30% of the testees. I take it to the FDA for approval and they ask "what are the physical principles behind the active ingredient?" Suppose, then, I respond by saying "There is no active ingredient. The pill relies entirely on the placebo effct for its efficacy."
Will the FDA approve the drug?
Let me think...
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The FDA would make you test your placebo against another placebo, probably. Controlled tests means, by definition, that you are looking at two groups. One administered the active drug, the second some other (not all are placebo-controlled. For example, most cancer treatments are controlled by using standard cancer treatments.) Telling the FDA it was able to alleviate symptoms of the common cold in 30% of the testees means nothing to the FDA. They want to know if there is difference and if the difference is statistically significant.

--
"Even I realized that money was to politicians what the ecalyptus tree is to
koala bears: food, water, shelter and something to crap on."
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You do realize that the FDA is in charge of drugs _and_ McDonald's, right? That they're the ones that are okay with food-like substitutes and consider a chicken house with an open door to be free-range chicken, right? That they find no problem with feeding cattle food that it is pretty much incapable of digesting without harm, and pumping it full of antibiotics, and then serving it up at Cracker Barrel. Yeah, what could possibly go wrong there?
I particularly loved the FDA's "BPA can't _possibly_ harm you!" announcement, followed a year later with, "Well, maybe..." I predicted that one - it would upset manufacturing and the plastics industry too much to have an abrupt ban.
The FDA is a huge, scientific organization with top minds used to their fullest capacity analyzing drugs to make sure they're safe. And the FDA simply can't make mistakes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs Oh...sorry, nevermind.
Believing that the FDA knows all about drugs makes as much sense as believing OSHA knows all about construction. However, it is in keeping with your all-government-is-bad mentality, unless you're trying to make a point and then you point out an infallible governmental entity. Nice job of waffling.

Bingo. I do not find it surprising in the least that the guy with the most medical experience in this thread understands that a benefit to a patient is a benefit.
R
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On 2/5/2011 4:27 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:

James Randi turned out to be a magic fairy. I don't care, I like him anyway. :-)
TDD
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http://xkcd.com/765 /
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Post the real link, or a preview version of the tinyurl link.
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wrote:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/05/news/la-heb-skeptics-homeopathy-01052011
HB
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