home remodeling question

[mr jones]

what is the "customary", or "typical" procedure a homeowner would take when doing a project as a basement finishing, or remodel of say a wooden deck, or perhaps adding a room ?

specifically, say Joe Public, calls up several contractors for quotes. they all survey the job, and write up their bids.

question - what level of detail should those bids encompass?

for example, adding a new room - should their bids include the specifics of the foundation ? (ie. preparation, use of wire reinforced mesh, gauge of mesh, or maybe rebar - distance between rebar, PSI rating of concrete, gravel depth, type of vapor barrier, etc, etc). how about details regarding the type of hardware used on the studs or ceiling joists ? should it spec out specific brands (ie. Simpson, or whatever) ? and details such as types/sizes of nails to use.

i've read plenty of horror stories of clueless contractors (and equally clueless homeowners), both parties having no idea of proper industry practices.

is it customary to allow a contractor to go ahead and just take it on faith (or perhaps their reputation), that they will conform to accepted industry standards (code inspections not withstanding) ?

OR - is the level of detail that i'm harping on something an architect for a project, would be the only person who would be involved in that level of specification ?

how do you decide if an architect should get involved (on say a basement refinish project, or room addition), vs. having the contractor work of a set of rudimentary drawings ?

what do typical contracts spec out ? - for instance, if later down the road, nails start corroding - is it my fault for not spec'ing out specific quality nails ? that's why i want to know what level of detail is customary on a contract. do i have to spell every little thing out, or are there accepted norms in the building industry that competent contractors adhere to ?

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, Then you have to write down what you want to be done in details and show it to the contractor when he shows up for estimate. If he tries to change things make sure it's for the better not the other way around. Most of them try to be cheap and easy. I haven't had done any renovation on my house but had 5 houses custom built in my life time so far. After everything is discussed make double sure you and contractor both are on same page. If mistake occurs during project the sooner you catch, the better it'll be. My house always had finished basement on same spec, as upstairs.

[RBM]

[John Grabowski]

I agree with Tony. The more details that you supply, the better your chances of getting what you want. It is important when soliciting bids that each contractor is bidding on the same plans and specifications so that you can compare apples to apples and know that you are getting a good price. If you leave everything up to each individual contractor there is no telling what you will wind up with. Spend a few weeks doing research and writing down what you want. For a basement remodel you could get away with some hand drawn floor plans. For an addition to a house you will probably need a set of plans to submit to your town for approval. Also be sure to get permits and inspections for the job and make sure that your contractors know that. If someone balks about permits or says that you don't need them, that's a red flag and you can cross them off your list. Don't be shy about asking if the contractor is licensed and insured. Those are legitimate questions. Also ask what kind of warranty the contractor gives. It should be at least one year.

If you are absolutely clueless about what you want and materials to use, tell that to each contractor and welcome their input. Then formulate your final drawings and specifications.

[aemeijers]

Tony Hwang wrote:

If you are clueless on home remodeling (no shame in that, if you didn't grow up in the business like many of the people on this group), I strongly recommend getting a professional designer involved, to create buildable plans and a materials take-off sheet. Unless local codes require it (like much of New England), it doesn't have to be an actual architect with the expen$ive stamp for the plans. Ask friends, neighbors, and coworkers who they used to design their remodels. Odds are the same name will start popping up. Independent designers may have a yellow pages listing, but the good ones usually don't advertise much, since word of mouth gets them all the work they can handle. Many home remodel companies say they offer design services, which is fine, but if you want all the bidders to be bidding on the same work (and not apples and oranges), it is best (IMHO), to have your own design in hand. A licensed contractor (versus a place that sends out a salesman with shiny brochures, but subs out the actual work) will know the local codes and customary practices, and have a good working relationship with the inspectors, or he won't be in business long. If a company has been around 10-20 years, you are probably okay. Your call if you want to pay the designer extra for site visits and any needed consultation once the job is underway. The designer can give you names of local contractors they have worked with before, and had good results with. Note that if you are getting a loan to do these upgrades, bank will be happier if you have an actual designer, as will your insurance company. Yes, this will add anywhere from an extra few hundred, to a couple of thousand, to the price of the project, depending on the complexity. But you will likely end up with better results. Look at it as cheap insurance- if a hack puts up something unsafe, or not to code, you could be looking at of thousands if inspector says 'rip it out', or worse yet, the place falls down in a storm and somebody gets hurt.

-- aem sends....

[Edwin Pawlowski]

All of that can come later. Many homeowners are shopping for price. Often, they don't know if the job is going to be $500, $5000, or $50,000. Once that range is determined you can talk to the preferred contractor(s) and get more specific in materials and methods. You may get two or three or five bids and find that you don't want to work with some so don't waste their time or yours yet.

If you are talking a room additiona nd foundation, your best be may be to have an architect draw up plant for hte bid and that takes out a lot of "I think this is OK" stuff and maikes the inspections much easier.

Only if you truly know the contractor. I woudl with some, not with others.

Permits and approvals go much better with plans from an architect. I'm going through a $1million dollar project and the town essentially said "if it is OK with the architect it is OK with us".

[David Nebenzahl]

On 5/25/2008 5:17 PM Edwin Pawlowski spake thus:

Not only do they "go better", but such plans are often *required*. I know for a fact that they are here in Oakland, CA, based on recent experience of an acquaintance remodeling his kitchen. The city required an architect's drawings for the project.

[evodawg]

That's BULL the only reason the city has to be involved is so they can access the TAXES. You improve your property then the TAX MAN wants to know.Improvements means more $$$$ for the city state and anyone else who can get their grubby fingers on it. You don't need a permit to remodel a kitchen or bath. If your building an addition or doing anything structural then yes.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

The OP mentioned room addition. If it is visible from outside, you are better off getting the permit.

[Edward Hennessey]

MJ:

If you want a thorough approach to the situation, your local library will have more than one book which will give you very systematic ways of addressing the matter.

Be sure you check licensing and verify insurance. Look at any complaints and then undertake the arduous step of finding out how or if your local authority allows any record of them to be purged so they no longer appear as public information. If you consider your investment significant, going to the local courthouse and looking at the accessible data for civil cases filed may be informative. Call 6 recent, dated customer references. Ask your contractor who his suppliers are. Call those suppliers and then ask them who they recommend for this type of job. If they don't volunteer the name your man, later note that he has been mentioned to you and ask what they have to say. Talk with these material suppliers about the nature of your task and ask them what they would suggest.

Regards,

Edward Hennessey

[gfretwell]

A lot depends on where you live. In Florida you will need engineering for anything that is structural (foundations, exterior/load bearing walls, trusses and roof systems). Your structurals will have all the details spelled out precisely. They also require very detailed plans of anything that involves the wind code (nailing schedules, window ratings and sheathing). Those are the kinds of thiongs that may have you ripping out non-conforming work. You can usually get away with anything that happens inside the structural envelope without much more than a plan on notebook paper if you get a permit at all.

On the other hand there are places that don't require any permits at all. They are usually the ones that you see scattered around the neighborhood in all of those "after the storm" pictures. It is real easy to pick out the post "Andrew" homes in Florida. They are the ones still standing after a hurricane.

[evodawg]

Oh Edwin, I was commenting on a followup not the original OP's question. And yes I did clarify room additions and structural as needing a permit. For a Kitchen or Bath remodel, forget it, its not needed unless you want to throw more money to your city and state assessors office.

[Steve]

evodawg wrote in news:yJK_j.3110$u7.1521@trnddc07:

I agree that a large part of the reason for a permit is to make sure the tax assessor can increase your bill. The _official_ reason is to ensure that your work meets code. My city, Arlington, TX, requires a permit for anything that isn't repair, including a new fence.

One thing to worry about is work requiring a license, like electrical and plumbing. Some licensed professionals will require that you get a building permit.

My church wanted to build risers for the video room, just to support chairs and worktables. The city required that they submit a plan for approval. I submitted the hand-drawn plan under my so-called contractor's license. Of course, that falls under commercial work, so the rules are stricter. (It's a "so-called" license, because Texas doesn't actually license contractors. I have to pay a fee each year to cities where I work to be able to submit a request for a building permit. It's just a business tax. Homeowners can submit requests for free.)

I've heard stories that some localities (maybe the Northeast or California?) will make you remove any unpermitted work, apply for a permit, then do it all over again. This is supposedly without regard to whether the work meets code. It's simply punishment. Any truth to those stories?

Aside: I'm working for a client who added 800 square feet to his house, but never took out a permit. I think he'll have a surprise when he tries to sell it. The buyer's lender will notice that the inspector reported a bigger house than what the tax assessor knows about. The lender will then insist on all kinds of extra paperwork, and the insurance company will want proof the work was to code before they'll issue a policy. The tax assessor will notice all this and bill him for back taxes plus penalties.

[Tom Horne]

That would mean that the four times I have had to pull apart an electrical installation and test all of the installed conductors with a megohm-meter were all just figments of my imagination. Wait no, I got paid for those jobs and I doubt if anyone would pay me for imaginary work. You see when a later inspection for a different project found the work that was done without a permit the homeowner then had to have the work examined by a master electrician who then had to partition for acceptance of insulation resistance testing and termination examination as acceptable in place of as installed testing of the electrical installation. Fortunately for the homeowner the petition was accepted by the board of permit appeals contingent on exposing two terminations of the inspectors choosing to verify that the work appeared to have been competently installed. The homeowner was real happy when the inspector agreed to use an inspection scope that could access the installation without removing the drywall.

Read your homeowners insurance policy very carefully and you will discover that any work done on your home for which the local government requires a permit that is done without a permit is uninsured as to it's affects and consequences. If such work causes a loss that loss is uninsured. It is a legal absurdity to attempt to insure against the consequences of an unlawful act on the part of the beneficiary of the insurance. No court will ever enforce an insurance contract that results in the perpetrator of an unlawful act being paid for the consequences of that act. Chances are you won't get caught but do you want to bet your home on that.

So clear is the law on the power of local governments to conduct building and fire code inspections that in the Supreme Court Case "Camera vs the Municipal Court of the City & County of San Francisco" the court held that the need to make code enforcement inspections was sufficient probable cause for a warrant to issue. You can prate about unfair taxes all you want. The law is whatever the supreme court says it is. They are the last word.

Look out there's a UN black helicopter behind you.

[evodawg]

Isn't that just a Business License?

Probably true, if it was an addition or something structural. Never heard of any stories where this was applied to a kitchen or bath remodel.

Again we are talking about an addition to an existing house. Permit is required. If your remodeling a kitchen, bath or "basement" which California has little of, then I would not bother getting a permit unless you have little faith in your contractor. I've been remodeling baths and kitchen for years and not pulled a permit once. I know code and follow it. I don't cut corners and my main concern is the customer, including his/her safety.

Hanging cabinets installing tile or wood floors, sweating copper pipes, hanging drywall and light electrical work, has very little to do with code violations/enforcement, and has more to do with adding value to your home. Code enforcement dept. wants to know and then passes this off to the Tax Collector. I know many Inspectors in my city and they have told me what they are sent out to inspect is ridiculous, but they would never admit this in public. Also have been told and seen for myself, "most" homeowners should never attempt work that includes electrical and plumbing.

General Engineering Contractor

[HeyBub]

You think you jest? Here's a report about a woman who has to hire a lifeguard, buy insurance, and get a permit for a blow-up wading pool.

[Art]

That sort of depends on your definition of "need". Some localities require permits. If you want to be legal then you "need" a permit for whatever is required in your particular location. If you're not interested in complying with the law then what you say is true.

By the way "your" and "you're" have entirely different meanings.

[evodawg]

Thanks for pointing that out asshole! Now stick it up YOUR ass!