Home Inspection Beyond the Breaker Box and with Power On

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wrote:

Nope, the receptacle just has to be outside of the "tub space".
There was also a note up thread a ways that says twist lock receptacles are exempt from GFCI in 210.8 ... Nope
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On Friday, August 29, 2014 11:11:11 PM UTC-6, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Thanks snipped-for-privacy@aol.com. The receptacles are located out of the tub space in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.
I think someone asked about the outcome of the teenage girl I mentioned yes terday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I wa s net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an electric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fell in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was several miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the papers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course the y were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.
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On Saturday, August 30, 2014 9:06:20 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.

esterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and wa s in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an electr ic dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fell in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was severa l miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the pape rs reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course t hey were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make su re it did not happen to their own kids.
I'd wonder about the dying after the hair dryer fell into the water. I would think there is a much greater chance she killed herself while *holdin g* it, then it fell into the water. If you're holding it while sitting in the tub full of water, there is a direct path through you, across your heart, to ground. If it just falls in the water, you, or at least most of you, es pecially the chest area, are typically not in the main ground path.
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On Saturday, August 30, 2014 7:24:47 AM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:

e in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.

yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an elec tric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fel l in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was seve ral miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the pa pers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.

ing*

he

especially the chest area, are typically not in the main ground path.
You're right. My wording does not do justice to the actual, physics-based c ause. I see discussion on this point on the net today, including reports of more recent accidents and despite GFCI requirements. E.g. http://www.start ribune.com/local/11961511.html
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Hmm, Price of some mistake is so ultimately high. On next life she will never do it again, Sigh. Now code specifies outlets, switches should be located out of reach from bath tub. If not, switch has to be outside the bath room. My last house had switch plate just outside wall of the 2nd bath room being little too small.
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On Saturday, August 30, 2014 11:56:16 AM UTC-4, Tony Hwang wrote:

e in both baths, about as far as they could possibly be from the tub.

yesterday. I believe this happened in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when I was net yet a teenager myself. The girl was from a well-to-do family and was in the bathtub, simultaneously soaking and drying her hair with an elec tric dryer. Maybe one of the old fashioned hair net versions? The dryer fel l in the bath water. She was electrocuted and died instantly. This was seve ral miles from where I lived, different school district and all, but the pa pers reported on it amply. All the parents were talking about it. Of course they were saddened for the girls' family and went to some trouble to make sure it did not happen to their own kids.



IDK what code says in Canada, but here in the USA I think the rule is only that switches/outlets can't be in the actual wet areas of the tub or shower. AFAIK, one on the wall, say outside a shower enclosure, but still reachable, is permissible.
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 09:25:02 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

True, they just talk about "tub and/or shower space", basically inside the shower curtain.
404.4 ...Switches shall not be installed within wet locations in tub or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly. 406.8(C) Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.
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wrote:

You do say garage here, but I missed it and thought you meant the bathrooms. So I retract the words "more than need be". Sorry.
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 06:06:20 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

That was me. Thanks for explaining. A very sad story.
Well-to-do make the same mistakes others do, it seems.
I knew a woman, who is an M.D. no less, whose little girl, I'm told, drowned in the bathtub.
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On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 06:42:51 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

I've thought about this too. It seems to me that the most likely time is when the dryer or something falls in, and the bather reaches for it to throw it out again. Once he lifts it above the water line, his arm is wet even if it wasn't before, there's water all over the inside of the appliance, the water has soap and dirt and other things that make an even better conductor of electricity than normal, and he's holding the dryer.
It seems the best thing to do would be to avoid the electric appliance and get yourself out of the tub asap.
But I'm not going to try this, in case I'm wrong.

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On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 04:53:26 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

I didn't know they used labels like that. I take back what I said. No reason to think the breaker was replaced. Just the outlet.

I guess so. OTOH, I rarely use any of them but one, so it's not so bad.
There's only one outdoor outlet, that I use for the electric lawnmower, weedwacker, or hedge trimmer, but only one thing at a time.
But when I do that, I'm not using any power in the kitchen or the bath. The bath has a tv, a clock radio, and a Powermid, so I can control the tuner in the bedroom. (The Powermid xmitter is on an inline swtich, because somehow it used to interfere with the remote control, even when the lights were off and the door to the bathroom was shut.) So usually only the clock is running. Like someone else, the outlets in the bathrooms are as far from the tub or shower as they can be. Maybe 8 feet. They're right next to the sinks however, but I don't touch them when my hands are wet.

I guess '79 qualifies as a very long time. The laundry room is actually half the basement, with the furnace too. It was bult with another outlet for the sump pump. I guess just those two.
I put 8 more in, 4 underneath the new work bench, none of which I've ever used, and 4 above the work bench, all one circuit (I guess that's bad) but I never use more than one tool at a time plus an overhead light and a lamp. I just didn't want to have to plug and unplug things.

I get that now. Thanks.

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On Sat, 30 Aug 2014 08:43:21 -0500, Unquestionably Confused

FWIW, mine, from '79, is a single-wide. The breaker box is much bigger than what is used so space couldn't have been a problem.

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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks for the follow-up. It's always good to hear how it all worked out.
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On 11/1/2013 3:11 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

more. I called a local licensed, bonded and insured electrician to get some kind of estimate on the repair and an inspection of the panel. He said email him the report photos and he could come out for a free estimate. Twenty minutes later, he's at the house. Twenty more minutes, $45, two Halloween Snickers bars, later, he had the simple Romex connector in, educated me a little in excellent teaching style, inspected the panel, and invoiced the charges. He left the breaker shut, said no big deal, and had his hands on the sheathing of the wires.

Sounds like a tech who knows what he's doing. I sure hope you recommend him to every one you know.
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On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:33:08 PM UTC-7, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I submitted my recommendation of him and the company he co-owns, and the essentials of why, to the "Services" section of my 1000+ home neighborhood's web site within an hour after he left.
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On 11/2/2013 11:00 AM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

he co-owns, and the essentials of why, to the "Services" section of my 1000+ home neighborhood's web site within an hour after he left.

I hope he has plenty of business. And that plenty of customers have good inspections.
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On 11/1/2013 3:11 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Second update: I feel like not only a jerk but am humbled. All posts read; where people made light of the journey of home selling is appreciated for the laughs (the best medicine). Pardon for not calling out everyone by name. Thanks again all.

Not to worry. We all had to learn about thing we are not familiar with.
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On Friday, November 1, 2013 2:02:08 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

I didn't realize he was the seller and this inspector was for the buyer. I've been the seller and have been present for the inspection. Since he was working for the buyer, I didn't follow him around, but I was there if he wanted to ask anything. But, another strategy is maybe you don't want to be around for him to ask questions. What I meant was as a buyer I would always be there for the inspection.

Agree, if it's romex, which is typical, it needs to have a clamp on it where it enters the panel. If there is a cable there missing a clamp, it should be obvious from the outside. There are 25 other circuits there to look at and you would think even a hack could play monkey see, monkey d, but as you point out, it's not unusal for someone to foul it up.
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On Fri, 1 Nov 2013 07:40:06 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Pulling the panel cover on the average panel is safer than crossing the street. Particularly if you know anything about the panel. Reaching in without knowing what you are doing is foolish.
A good home inspector SHOULD pull the panel cover. He can tell a LOT about the condition of the wiring from that one simple check. He knows if extra wiring has been improperly added to the panel. He knows if the house has copper or aluminum wiring, or a mix of the two. He can tell if there is a problem with the line or neutral busses - signs of overheating. - and a lot more.. If a home inspector hired by me does NOT pull the panel cover, he didn't do the job I hired him for. And he better have a 3 lamp outlet tester in his pocket, and use it, too.
If the house has aluminum wiring he better spot check a few outlets and switches to see if it has the required co-alr devices installed, or pigtails.
If he finds anything suspicious, he needs to mark on the report that the electrical system should be checked by a qualified professional.
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On 11/01/2013 09:56 AM, dgk wrote:

I tried that with a car once, A2 chassis VW GTI 16V, got it all fixed up before I moved to MD and having lived in MD before I knew the safety inspection was miserable - I'd never seen a car pass the 1st time. I knew that the load-sensing rear brake prop valve was frozen up and I actually had the replacement in hand, but I thought that I'd be slick, let the inspector catch it, then do what I was going to do anyway and replace it and everyone's happy - inspector 'cause he found something, and me because I wouldn't have to spend any money that I hadn't already spent, save for a few bucks worth of brake fluid. Well, he *didn't* find the frozen prop valve (a real safety issue) but he did tell me I had to replace my windshield because it was "too sandblasted." GRR!
Only reason I didn't bitch and moan was that the windshield was glued in but leaking, so I kicked it out myself, POR-15'd the lip, then had a glass guy come put a new one in for me. I also popped the rear window out at the same time and did that lip too.
Oddly after I sold that car to a friend some neighborhood kids busted out one of the rear quarter windows, so I ended up replacing that for her as well. Got lots of practice R&Ring glass on that car for some reason.
Weird coincidence - going to a party at her brother's place tonight, probably will see her for the first time in 5+ years.
nate
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