Home Inspection Beyond the Breaker Box and with Power On

[gfretwell]

That is the code in Canada.

[Ralph Mowery]

In his report, the inspector commented: "Any electrical repairs attempted by anyone other than a licensed electrician should be approached with caution. The power to the entire house should be turned off prior to beginning any repair efforts, no matter how trivial the repair may seem. ... Missing strain relief at panel. Have a licensed electrician make further evaluation and corrections as needed."

I am surprised first at how invasive this inspector was. Second at how he ignored safe practices by not securing the power. Third that he would have the gall to make judgments on the sufficiency of the internals. Fourth that he would go a step further and suggest he really does not know enough (so what's he doing in there in the first place?); get a licensed electrician to evaluate.

Sounds normal to me. The breaker box has to have stickers like that on it for lawsuit protection. I bought a house about 9 years ago and the inspector pulled the cover off. I worked as an electrician for a company before retiring. We opened many boxes that would make the house box look small. Also higher voltgage and current ratings.

He is not going to make any corrections. The statement about getting a license electrician is boiler plate from the computer. Meaning it should be corrected.

He could be checking to see if aluminum wiring is used in the house. That could be a deal breaker for some.

[trader4]

That's one thing all of these inspectors are good at, CYA. Can't say that I blame them. They have enough stuff in there to protect themselves. On the Peoples Court a few weeks ago a guy was suing his home inspector for $5K in damages because he also did the termite inspection. Soon as I heard the two sides in the case, I figured it was unlikely the home buyer was going to win, because it's so hard to prove, especially with termites, that it was obvious and the inspector should have found it.

But this case was a little different. The buyer had heard through his real estate agent that the house had a termite problem in one area. He specifically told the inspector about it and to look there. Inspector said there was no evidence of termites. Six months after buying, the termites were swarming all over. He called in a treatment company and the company said that mud tunnels were there and easy to spot, etc. Inspector claimed that they were hidden, termite guy must have removed trim mouldings, etc to see them, etc, etc.

So, the homeowner won this one. But... The home inspection contract says that if the inspector screws up, damages are limited to the lesser of the cost of repairs or the cost of the inspection. So, the guy won $400, which isn't much of a victory.

[trader4]

This is the first person I've heard complaining that a home inspector was too invasive in his procedure. Every other one was "You can't believe all the stuff he missed, he never went up on the roof, etc... "

[WW]

I am in the process of selling my house. What do you all think of a home inspector who takes off the breaker box cover off (not just opens the door to expose the breakers; he had to remove four screws to get the cover off), exposes the wire connections, all the while keeping the main breaker shut and so the insides of the box remained electrically hot as he did a visual inspection and took photos? The breaker box has a prominent sticker in it that says to open the main breaker prior to removing the cover.

In his report, the inspector commented: "Any electrical repairs attempted by anyone other than a licensed electrician should be approached with caution. The power to the entire house should be turned off prior to beginning any repair efforts, no matter how trivial the repair may seem. ... Missing strain relief at panel. Have a licensed electrician make further evaluation and corrections as needed."

I am surprised first at how invasive this inspector was. Second at how he ignored safe practices by not securing the power. Third that he would have the gall to make judgments on the sufficiency of the internals. Fourth that he would go a step further and suggest he really does not know enough (so what's he doing in there in the first place?); get a licensed electrician to evaluate.

He was trained by Obama!

[Bob_Villa]

Doesn't sound like Stormy?

[trader4]

I see. I was wondering if it was a Canadian thing, since Holmes is the only place I've seen it. It does sound like a good idea to make them that way though. Then with the main off and taking off the main cover panel, there isn't anything energized someone going to put in a breaker, or just poking around could touch. Of course, I guess you could say if you know what you're doing, it's easy to avoid doing that anyway. And if you're not, you shouldn't be in there to begin with.....

Now if someone could explain why on almost all the Homes shows up there in Canada, they put the frigging panel in sideways instead of vertical..... Seems really, really dumb to me.

[honda.lioness]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 7:55:59 AM UTC-7, [e-mail] wrote: > Then you should be able to tell us whether there is in

I felt the buyer had a right not to have the seller (me) present so he was uninhibited as possible about asking questions and getting to know what sup posedly may be his house. I think transparency is the key to good business.

I have not researched the requirements for housing strain relief at this po int. The panel was city approved. Hence I am left wondering if the code cha nged.

I do not want to argue. See below where I admit I was a jerk on the "power on" point.

Yep. The issue is about minimizing the chances. But perhaps of greater inte rest to the many deriding my point of view about safety: A local friend who se trades knowledge I respect said, in so many words, I was being a jerk ab out the issue of the main breaker being shut when inspection took place. I trust her. You all have reinforced what she said. Thanks to all for postin g your thoughts.

[Metspitzer]

I first saw this when I was working at "The Fox Theater" I was told to leave a box cover off an electrical box. The foreman said.....That will be something easy to fix and it will make the inspector happy.

[krw]

I'd think he's doing his job.

I'd say he was doing his job and covering his ass at the same time. I'd tell the buyer to pound salt, if they required that I use a incensed electrician, though. If they want a licensed electrician to inspect my work, fine. They pay.

Nonsense. Opening a live box is no big deal. I've worked in many live boxes. I'd rather not but it's not all that dangerous.

He's not a licensed electrician or fire inspector, so he's giving his opinion couched exactly as he should. He's actually leaving the door open for you to claim that it's fine as is. It's up to the buyers to decide whether to cancel the purchase because of this and up to you to decide how to fix it if they demand that it be fixed. It's called "negotiation". Personally, I've just fixed whatever the inspector finds, as I see fit. If the buyers don't want to let me do the work, they can find another house. It's mine until they sign the papers and hand me the check.

[krw]

My mains (both houses) are outside by the meter.

Being the seller, I'd just smile. Hell, the buyers of our other house didn't even hire an inspector.

[TomR]

I am not sure what you meant by "here". But, if "here" means the U.S., I think that the panel can be installed horizontally (although I personally hate that).

And, although I am not completely sure, I think that the code (NEC) says that the panel can be horizontal but the main service disconnect (main breaker) has to be installed such that "On" is "Up" and "Off" is "Down". I don't think that applies to each breaker -- just the main service disconnect switch.

The reason why I think that is that I recently had an electrician install two new service panels. He put them both in upside down, with the main breaker on the bottom and all of the individual breakers above the main breaker. I hated that, but I looked it up and apparently that was within code. I never thought to even ask about right side up or upside down since I never saw one that was upside down. However, for my own sanity (or neurosis), I had the electrician change the panels to what I consider to be right side up -- the main breaker on top and the individual breakers below the main breaker.

And, the reason why I mention this is that I am pretty sure that I was when researching this I found that the code does allow a horizontal panel as long as the main breaker's "On" position is "Up" and "Off" position is "Down".

[krw]

He's SELLING the house. Of course the BUYER'S inspector was too invasive. They always are (if you're the seller)! ;-)

[krw]

Hell, no. The inspector seems half way competent.

[bud--]

The top of the panel has a covered area (around the service conductors), as you posted.

Apparently you can not run any other circuits through that area. That means the wiring has to run down the side of the panel and come in the lower side (which you see sometimes on Holmes). They apparently think it is easier to install the panel horizontally and bring the wires in the side, which is now on top.

You can't install a panel horizontally here. If a circuit breaker is installed vertically, "on" must be up. Half the breaker positions would be wrong.

[Scott Lurndal]

The NEC has always required that non-metallic sheathed cable (e.g. type NM-B) that enters an electrical raceway, panelboard or metallic box uses a strain-relief fitting installed to prevent abrasion of the thermoplastic insulation which can lead to an unsafe condition. It is quite common for homeowners to simply remove a knock-out and drop type NM into a panelbox when adding a circuit without using the strain relief (a $0.25 part). It is also unsafe.

[Ralph Mowery]

When I first started there were not many rules. Just the plant safety glasses. Later there were several classes of protectioin required determined by the ammount of power in the circuit. Everything from just cotton or natural fiber cloths and safety glasses up to a heavy cal rated coat, hood and gloves. There were several steps in between the two extreams.

Even people in the area had to be so far back that did not have on the protection. From a few feet to something like a thousnd feet. Most higher powered circuit cabinets had stickers on them telling the level required.

[bud--]

"404.7 Indicating General-use ... switches, circuit breakers, ... shall clearly indicate whether they are in the open (off) or closed (on) position. Where these switch or circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the up position of the handle shall be the (on) position."

[bud--]

==============

When you worked on the high capacity equipment you needed personal protection equipment. Minimal protection would be required for a house panel and I don't worry about the many people here that remove panel covers. But I think there is at least one state (MN?) that doesn't want home inspectors in panels.

I agree it is boiler plate. In MN (and many areas) a homeowner can work on the electrical in their own house. If allowed where the inspection was made, the boiler plate interferes with that.

[honda.lioness]

First update: What Scott says above and a bit more. I called a local licens ed, bonded and insured electrician to get some kind of estimate on the repa ir and an inspection of the panel. He said email him the report photos and he could come out for a free estimate. Twenty minutes later, he's at the ho use. Twenty more minutes, $45, two Halloween Snickers bars, later, he had t he simple Romex connector in, educated me a little in excellent teaching st yle, inspected the panel, and invoiced the charges. He left the breaker shu t, said no big deal, and had his hands on the sheathing of the wires. Secon d update: I feel like not only a jerk but am humbled. All posts read; where people made light of the journey of home selling is appreciated for the la ughs (the best medicine). Pardon for not calling out everyone by name. Than ks again all.