Home Depot Latex Paint ...very poor coverage

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I spent a fortune on Home depot topof the line Latex. I primed the bare wood with primer and the it basically too 3 or 4 coats to cover. The color is white. I don't know what's wrong with Latex paint these days. I remember when Latex fist came out in the early 1960's. My father bought Dupont Lucite Latex and he never had a coverage problem. The crap they have today is like water.
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Try a good brand, HD top of line is close to bottom of line in quality brands. I used it once and swore never again, I just could not get it to lay flat.
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On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 17:53:16 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net wrote:

fist came out in the early 1960's. My father bought Dupont Lucite Latex and he never had a coverage problem. The crap they have today is like water.

Buy better paint.
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snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net;2922280 Wrote: > I spent a fortune on Home depot topof the line Latex. I primed the bare > wood with primer and the it basically too 3 or 4 coats to cover. The > color is white.

> Latex fist came out in the early 1960's. My father bought Dupont Lucite > Latex and he never had a coverage problem. The crap they have today is > like water.
There are quite a number of factors that affect the hide of a latex paint, and I'll explain each of them:
(First off, tho, DuPont makes some vinyl acrylic resins, but so far as I know, DuPont never marketed a latex paint under their own name. The very first latex paints to be marketed in North America was Glidden's "Dulux" paint that was introduced in 1959. Glidden is a subsidiary of ICI Ltd. (Imperial Chemical Industries) of Britain.)
The gloss level of the paint is one factor in determining how well it hides an underlying colour. All other factors being equal, the glossier a paint is, the easier it is to clean with simple wiping, but the less well it will hide an underlying colour.
The reason for that is quite simple. Paints contain "extender pigments" which are huge rocks almost large enough to see with the naked eye. Were it not for extender pigments, all paints would dry to a high gloss. These extender pigments are either white, clear or transluscent, but don't have any other colour to them so as not to affect the colour of the paint. And so, the reason why flatter paints hide better is exactly the same reason why water is clear, but a cloud is opaque. The extender pigments added to lower the gloss level of the paint reflect and refract incident light, thereby scattering the light and making the paint more opaque (or more difficult to see through).
A second factor is the amount of titanium dioxide in the paint. When lead carbonate was banned as the high hiding white pigment in architectural paints in the mid-1970's, it was replaced with titanium dioxide. Unfortunately, titanium dioxide is one of the more expensive pigments used in paints, and so the more titanium dioxide you put in a gallon of paint to obtain better hide, the more you have to charge for that gallon to make a profit.
Aside: (Exterior paints will most often use zinc oxide as the white pigment because:
a) titanium dioxide acts as a catalyst by which paints chaulk when exposed to intense sunlight, and so an exterior paint with lotsa titanium dioxide will chaulk more than a paint with little to no titanium dioxide, and
b) zinc, like copper, arsenic and boron, is a natural biocide, so the zinc oxide in exterior paints helps to prevent mold and fungi growing on the paint in continuously shaded and damp areas.)
A third factor is the colour of your paint. Basically, wood stains get their colour from dyes, whereas paints get their colour from solid coloured particles called "pigments". (You will never find dye in a paint.) There are two kinds of pigments; organic and inorganic.
ORGANIC pigments are best thought of as the "colourwheel" colours. They consist of different kinds of yellows, reds, blues and greens, and all the colours you can make by mixing those primary colours, like orange, purple, magenta, etc. Organic pigments tend to have low opacity (they look like little pieces of coloured glass under a microscope) but they disperse well, and that high dispersion helps increase the opacity of the paint.
INORGANIC pigments are best thought of as coloured rocks. They're the synthetic equivalent of the coloured rocks that artists like DaVince and Michaelangelo have ground into fine powders to make their paints from for centuries. The inorganic pigments in a paint tinting machine will be:
Black - which is actually soot made by burning natural gas in special ovens with insufficient air so that copious amounts of soot are formed.
White - which nowadays is titanium dioxide, the most expensive pigment commonly used in house paints. There are two different kinds of titanium dioxide; rutile and anatase, but quality paints and primers will use the rutile form because it's refractive index is higher, providing for better hide.
Yellow Oxide - which is a mustard yellow iron oxide that is the synthetic equivalent of the rocks found in the Italian town of Sienna, from which the natural pigment "Sienna" gets it's name.
Red Oxide - which is reddish brown in colour and is the most common form of iron oxide.
Brown Oxide - which is chocolate brown in colour, and Raw Umber - which is a very dark brown that could almost be mistaken for black.
ALL of the these inorganic pigments provide great hide, but they have a propensity to clump together, and that clumping together of these inorganic pigments acts to diminish the hide of the paint. In general tho, paints with lots of inorganic pigments tend to hide better than paints with lots of organic pigments in them. Since inorganic pigments are the synthetic equivalent of natural rocks, paints tinted with inorganic pigments fade very much less due to exposure to the Sun than paints tinted with organic pigments.
Home Depot is not the place to buy quality paints. Even if you buy a gallon of Rolf Lauren for $55 a gallon, they'll still tint it with the same colourants they use to tint their $18 per gallon Behr Eggshell "Enamel". I think that if you had purchased any paint company's top-of-the-line paint, you would have paid more, but you would have gotten a lot more titanium dioxide white pigment in your paint for better hide.
Next time try Benjamin Moore Aura or any of their "Regal" line of paints which include Aqua Velvet and Aqua Pearl. I use Pratt & Lambert Accolade paints in my building, and I've never been disappointed enough in it to go shopping for a better paint. I've heard good things about Sherwin Williams SuperPaint and their Duration exterior paints. While it's true that you get what you pay for when it comes to buying paint, it's also true that you don't always need everything you get. When I repaint one of my apartments, I'm repainting it the same colour as it was before, and so why do I need a high hiding paint?
A flatter paint that called mostly for inorganic pigments in it's tint formula would have hidden better than the one you bought. Finally, tinting your primer with a light absorbing pigment like black or Raw Umber will help a lot in hiding the underlying colour.
--
nestork


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Wow - Everything I ever wanted to know about paints and more.
I thought the Behr line of paints had high ratings from Consumer Reports.
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I just used Behr on the inside of my garage. The only thing I didn't like about it is that it tears easily. When I pulled off the masking tape around the outlets and such, it wanted to tear. It's like it didn't want to stick to the walls. I'll stick with Benjamin Moore.
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Yep.
I use the tape to cover the outlets themselves, after the cover is removed. In a few places the tape touched the paint. The other places that proved problematic were the woodwork around the doors and windows. It was just the garage so it didn't bother me that much but I would have been seriously pissed if it were the living room.

I try to get making tape off the same day but some of this was a few days later. It didn't seem to matter.
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Onclipped

I always remove tape as soon as I paint the area (before it sets)....have to mash down on the edge so paint doesn't seep under the edge. If tape is left on, esp. with latex paint, and the paint laps the tape a little bit, the tape can pull of a chunk of the paint film. I hate prep, but I am obsessive about doing it. When I do 2 coats (don't recall the last time I tried "one coat" paint), I wait 2 or three days, retape, repeat. The only positive is that I buy good paint and don't paint every 2 or 3 years to change color :o) I do kit. and baths, wood trim, doors with BM alkyd semi; wouldn't use anything else.
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Norminn Wrote: > I do kit. and baths, wood trim, doors with BM alkyd semi; wouldn't use > anything else.
Yes, but the writing is on the wall.
Alkyd paints are going the way of the dinosaur. Most conventional alkyd wall and floor paints are already off the market here in Canada as of September 1, 2012. The only conventional alkyd paints still available for sale are high gloss alkyds meant for use over metals.
Yes, you can buy a high gloss alkyd and use it on a wall or ceiling, but the problems is that you then have to scuff sand the walls and ceilings to roughen the paint when it comes time to repaint, and so that takes all the fun out of cheating the Govmint.
But, I agree with you. I like alkyd paints more than latex paints. They have a much more robust film formation mechanism and they dry to harder and more protective films.
But, you should start deciding what you're going to do once your government takes alkyd paints off the market, too. If I were you, I would check out a paint called "Monamel" marketed by the Comex Group which includes:
a) Color Wheel Paint b) Frazee Paint c) General Paint (if you live in Canada) d) Kwal Paint, and e) Parker Paint
If you recognize any of those names as operating in your area, pay them a visit with a handful of Q-tips and ask them to shake up a can of Monamel. Then use the Q-tips to apply some Monamel to a few samples of your BM semigloss alkyd paint to see how well it sticks.
Monamel will dry as quick as a latex paint, but then it'll take a week or two to cure and harden up. Monamel is actually a "hybrid" paint. It consists of alkyd resins suspended in water. So when you apply the stuff to the wall, what evaporates is H2O, but what remains on the wall are alkyd resins just like you'd painted with an alkyd paint. And, cuz those alkyds come suspended in water, cleaning up Monamel is no different than cleaning up after using any latex paint. Monamel is quickly becoming my favourite paint.
If it does stick, then if I wuz you, I'd buy it in a flat or eggshell gloss instead of a semi-gloss. That way, each coat of paint dries rough enough that you don't need to do any sanding to get the new paint to stick well to the old paint. And, there's no need to purchase semi-gloss paints for easy cleaning any more since Magic Erasers (pronounced: BASF "Basotect" foam) make for easy cleaning of all paints, including flat and eggshell.
--
nestork


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I generally wait until the paint is set so I don't smear it. But the Behr acted much differently than other paints I've used. It was like a film, that really didn't want to stick to the wall. Sorta like Scotch tape that lost much of its sticky.

The second coat, when using latex, is supposed to either be applied within 24 hours, before it's really started curing, or after 30 days, when it's completely cured. Between can cause adhesion problems.
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wrote:

I've always sworn to use BM, now I'm swearing at them!
BJ changed their formulas. It's more watery now, and @ $56 a gallon, I expect better. Really disappointed in their interior line.
I did happen to find an Ace, which still happen to have 13 gallons of the old formula latex exterior stain. I purchased every bit of it for my pad @ $14 per gallon. Feel I got a steal!
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I used to work for a professional house painter. He said to close the window [everything was a sash window then] don't let the paint dry, open the window and operate it BEFORE the paint has a chance to dry, else it sticks and you have horrible problems.
My father used to paint, then use a razor to cut a straight line THEN open the window or door.
Of the two, the wet works seemed to make a better looking solution.
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> I thought the Behr line of paints had high ratings from Consumer

Consumer Reports regularily rates Behr as a "Best Buy", but that's not because it's an excellent paint, it's just because it's probably the best paint you can buy for $18 per gallon.
You'll notice that most hardware store chain paints (like Lowe's "American Tradition" paint, Ace Hardware's "Beautitone" paints and the Behr paint sold at Home Depot all tend to get high ratings on Consumer Reports, and the reason is simple:
Whan a chain of hardware stores decides to sell their own brand of in-house paints, the approach a variety of paint companies to supply them with paint.
Now, a gallon of paint can cost anywhere from $10 to $40 to make, and so someone has to decide what level of quality the paint should be. The hardware store chain looks at it's customer profile and gets customers to fill out questionaires, and in the end figures most of it's customers want a "Buick" quality paint instead of a "Cadillac" or a "Rolls Royce" or a "Lada" paint. And, they figure each of their 1700 stores across North America will sell 30 gallons of paint per day on average.
So, the hardware store chain asks a half dozen paint companies to quote them a price for a upper mid-level quality paint that'll cost $20 (say) per gallon to make, and sell for $32 (say). Each paint company sharpens it's pencils and figures out what binder resin, pigments and additives package they can put in the gallon and still meet that $20 per gallon cost to make.
But, when they start working out the cost to supply 1.5 million gallons of paint per month, all of the price breaks that arise from buying the materials in large quantities figure into the math and end up going into the paint as a better quality binder resin, better quality pigments and/or better additives to make the paint spatter less, spread more smoothly, dry harder, last longer in storage, not be damaged if it freezes, etc.
That is, the volume discount that normally goes to the store chain for buying in large quanitity ends up going into the paint as better quality materials cuz the cost of manufacture has already been established.
And, this is the reason why the in-house paints sold by the big chain stores in the USA like Home Depot, Lowes, Menards, Sears, etc. typically get high ratings from Consumer Reports.
That doesn't mean they're the best paints you can get, it means they're better than one would expect FOR WHAT THEY COST.
And, now you know why.
--
nestork


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On 09/05/2012 01:29 PM, Oren wrote:

When I consider the amount of labor that goes into doing a paint job, buying a high-quality paint doesn't seem so expensive any more.
I guess if a person is a landlord, and needs to repaint frequently, a cheaper paint might be a better overall bargain, but not on my house.
Jon
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On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 15:21:04 -0700, Jon Danniken

+1
Cheaper paints are more work, though. As you hint above, time is money.
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On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 17:46:42 +0000, nestork

I've taken issue with CR recommendations too often and have not read it for many years. Things they found problematic, I found to be features.
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On 09/04/12 11:54 pm, nestork wrote:

In addition to HD and Lowe's, we have in this area the Menard's chain (based in Wisconsin). When I was having some paint shaken up there recently, I asked about the pigments, and they told me that the same pigments are used for all the paints they sell -- mainly "Dutch Boy" and a few different lines from Pittsburgh Paints.

A few years ago I tried to buy Benjamin Moore exterior paint around here. According to the Web site, it is sold at Ace Hardware, but the nearest Ace to me did not sell BM at all, and the next-nearest one had it only in gallon cans, which was an expensive way to buy it and would have taken a lot of boxing. In a specialist paint store I found color cards for BM exterior paints with the store's sticker on the back, but when I asked the price they said, "We don't sell their exterior paints."
Perce
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On 9/4/2012 11:54 PM, nestork wrote:

DuPont made consumer paints, Duco and Dulux but sold the business several years ago. They are now selling their automotive finishes business and will be out of the paint business. They still make the polymers and pigments that go into paints.
Titanium dioxide is only about a dollar a pound and there was an obvious deficiency of it in the op's paint. Been a while since I bought a 2 gallon pail of Behr ceiling paint but it did not have this problem. Cheap paints have less pigment in them and require more coats to cover.
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nestork wrote:

They did. I still have a couple of cans of their Lucite brand in the garage. They're at least 20 years old. You need a magnifying glass to see the 'Dupont' name on the label, but it's there.
The paint is still good, too.

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snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net wrote:

In addition to nestork's post - an excellent, informative one, BTW - it sounds as if you were skimpy with the paint or possibly with both primer and paint, .
It really helps to have primer tinted toward the top color but in your case there was no need. Is your complaint that you needed multiple coats to cover the primer? The primer completely hid the surface?
How did you apply the paint? Brush? Roller? Spray? In any case, one needs a liberal application but not so liberal that it runs.
With a roller, apply the paint in a 2' - 3' area in the form of a large "M" or "W" and roll that area in all directions...up<>down...side<>side...both diagonals. Feather out to adjacent areas.
If spraying it may need to be rolled after spraying depending on surface roughness.
If by brush, it needs to be applied fully but with a pressure light enough so that the bristles don't deform the paint to the point it can't flow together.
Finally, latex - ANY latex - sucks on wood. IMO, YMMV.
--

dadiOH
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