"Sanity" wrote in news:c7f2l.9365$ snipped-for-privacy@bignews5.bellsouth.net:
many people must not READ the HOA docs. On the news last night was a report about how a local Orlando-area HOA is banning sales or rentals to unmarried couples or single people.
That's not always the case. In my case, I came from another state I had no clue there even was an HOA until the closing, and it was either the middle or the end of that. I didn't see the docs at that time, and I don't think anyone in this n'hood has ever signed a statement to abide by them. I don't think anyone in Maryland signs a statement to abide by the rules, and some or many of my neighbors have completed the closing and moved into the house before they see a copy of anything (Articles of Incorporation, by-laws, and I think one other)
Actually I was pleased to see the papers, and I agree with everything, or almost everything in the papers I got. These are townhouses and it protects me from obnoxious neighbors. I suspect the typical rules for free-standing houses are different, and I suspect if I saw a typical set of them, I'd like them too.
Although some people might not. But even if one does know and approve of the rules, the rules are often changed later by stupid or excessively selfish or dishonest boards, or even a couple members of the board. Or rules are imposed by a "Architecture committee" that might only have one person on it if no one else voluteers, of if they do but the chairman doesn't bother to call them under after he has made the rules he wants.
There are many ways to screw over one's neighbors using the HOA rules, some of which are inevitably judgment calls, and it's very hard to show that personal malice was a motive, as it often is. Or at the very list, "I like to do things my way, and I'm going to make sure you do things my way too". The written documents rarely go into much detail, so there is plenty of room for abuse.
In my case, the current pres of the HOA is a liar, a cheat, and a thief, but no one wants the job but she. She does it for the emotional satisfaction of getting her way and pushing people around, and slightly for the graft she gets. Fortunately for me, her bad traits have only caused me slight inconvenience, until perhaps these past 10 months, and then only because an unreasonable neighbor moved next door to me. But she's caused lots of other small and big problems for others. Details on request.
But absolutely, I would say that 23 or 24 of my 25 years here were good, and the HOA rules helped them a great deal to be that way, rather than hindered them.
In theory there's something positive to be said for keeping some amount of goverment almost as close to oneself as possible, and not having the county government make one set of rules for everyone in the county. Details on request.
As to why one would buy in such a place, surely that was a rhetorical question. There are a dozen major factors to consider when buying a house and this is only one of them. The usual way to avoid a problem while still having the good things one wants is to spend more money, and not everyone has more money. There is a constant theme in many newsgroups that people are at fault when they don't just spend more money to avoid problems.
"Sanity" wrote in news:yAg2l.9394$ snipped-for-privacy@bignews5.bellsouth.net:
Ah,50% plus one rules the HOA.
or is a supermajority required?
Do you know the laws in Florida? Do you think that all laws are obeyed precisely everywhere all the time?
You call yourself Sanity, for gosh sakes.
It's very risky to guaranty things when you don't know all the facts.
Don't imagine that the rules in your state are the same rules everywhere.
The title company will not close the transaction unless the new owner signs off on the CC&R's. The bank will not lend on the property unless the buyer signs compliance with the CC& R's and By-Laws of the HOA.
CC&R's are voluntary agreements, intended to keep up property values. Works very well, too. Nobody is forced to buy into a HO administered tract. Keeps out a lot of trucks which spell "low income" and "blue collar" and "rednecks" and cheap housing.
Who wants to live in a neighborhood were people cannot afford to drive passenger cars? :-)
In Maryland every development of more than x houses has to have an HOA, although it doesn't have to collect dues or have meetings.
Don't know but I think that is largely to keep in force one important part, which is that if a fire destroys a house or owners neglect it sufficiently, and the owner wants to walk away, after following a few rules, the HOA can make repairs to the home, can borrow money to make the repairs (in normal economic times), and keep a lien on the house to get the money back. And can foreclose on the lien and sell the house to get the money back. I think the purpose of this is to prevent one and then several houses in disrepair turning a neighborhood into a "slum". No matter how expensive the houses, a burened out shell is going to run down house values.
That would certainly be fair. But such laws vary by state. I don't think there even is a Uniform HOA law, or Condo Law, or Co-op Law.
In Maryland Condo law is rather detailed, but the HOA law is quite short and for everything not specified there, standard corporate law applies.
Who's going to pay the lawyer bills this time? That would be real smart.
Thanks, but no thanks.
That would give them a good case to void the rules.
Who wants to live in a neighborhood where you have to?
If you don't read the docs before purchase and you sign that you read them, you deserve everything you get. And I'd like to see the article you are referring to.
Depends on the docs. Some are simple majority and some are 75%. But doesn't the majority always supposed to rule?
Not so sure. If the buyer knew there were HOA rules and he bought the house without reading them, he may have waived his right to read them in advance. The remedy would have been to insist that the seller provide the docs in advance, to give him time to read them. Didn't the seller have a copy? If for some reason the seller didn't have a copy, couldn't he get a copy from a neighbor? If not, what's the seller going to do? Maybe try to sell the house to someone else. But let's say he already signed the contract with the first guy?
If there are 100 members of the HOA, why should 99 of them forfeit their rights under the HOA docs because one seller, or the HOA board, refused to show the docs to a buyer. I don't think a court would allow that.
This is not just about a contract between the seller and the buyer. The seller rarely even cares anymore. But every member of the HOA is a party to this contract.
Maybe the buyer could argue fraud, and get the sale of the house reversed. Then the other members of the HOA would not suffer. But to find fraud the misrepresentation has to be substantial, more than trivial. Even then, this is not a case where the buyer didn't know there was an HOA. He knew and he didn't have to buy. He just didn't know what they contained. I think it would be a very hard case to win.
BAck when I was eligible for the draft, a friend had some serious physical problems that wouldn't be visible during the quick physical that the Selective Service gave potential draftees. The law provided for a Medical Interview, which was a one-to-one meeting with a doctor where the doc would mostly read the medical record, and maybe -- i odn't know -- run tests of his own, to see if the person was still draftable (The army doesn't want people who are already sick.) And the courts held that if one requested the interview but couldn't get one, and one showed up at the regular army physical anyway, he had waived his right to the Medical Interview. My friend found out that the doctor doing them in his city had resigned. He didn't want to go to Viet Nam but he took a chance and went to the army physical anyhow, and showed the doctor there the medical history, and was deferred. But by showing up, he had effectively waived his right to the Med Interview.
You don't have to sign anything, not the HOA rules nor an agreement to follow the rules sight unseen for them to be binding. They are binding in many states, maybe all but one, whether you've signed anything at all as long as you own the property they apply to.
Compare it with zoning laws. You might want to run a beauty salon in your basement, or an insurance agency in your den, or an antique store in the whole first floor, but if the property is not zoned for that you can't do it legally. Whether you agreed to the zoning laws or not.
Certain HOA rules can probably be ignored if no one complains, but others someone is likely to complain and unlike zoning, which allows for individual variances, HOA, condo, and co-op law likely don't.
For example, the architecture committee or the board here is supposed to review all the plans for fences. Fences have to made of real wood and not painted. But I noticed recently that a house at the far corner of the n'hood from me has a plastic fence. I guess no one objected.
In another case, fences were built around the back yards of two houses, one from the end of one building and the other from the facing end of the next building. They normally would have left 6? feet in the middle, which is the public easement, for everyone in the n'hood to use, especially people who want to go around to the back of their houses without going through the house, like to take a lawn mower back there, or to deliver a piano. Instead, one of the two neighbors said, People can go through my side gate, my yard, and the back gate, and I'll never lock either gate. And that's good enough, but someday the house will be sold, and sold again, and the new owner won't know or won't want to obey. And new people will move in next door who won't want to go 6 houses in the other direction. He'll lock the gates, and will be outraged when someone tells him he can't. Maybe his home was broken into through a rear window at his previous location, and it's important to him to lock the gates. Who will pay to have part of the fence moved, parts of both fencs?
Harry K wrote in news:cfc62494-e6e5-4f8c-abe5- snipped-for-privacy@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
Hmmm, how about vans? The Red Green Possum van would be an eyecatcher. Here it is making light work of making apple sauce:
I've lived in Florida and New York and North Carolina. If he went to closing without a lawyer, which many people do, they he deserves whatever he gets. A lawyer would have made sure he got the docs before he signed off to them. In an HOA I lived in Florida, two weeks prior to closing and interview was held with the prospective buyer. At that time it was ensured that he received a copy of the docs and was told to read them and call if there were any questions. If the buyer didn't read them and signed in the blind, then he's the idiot.
And who wants to live in a home where the next door neighbor has an RV on the lawn blocking the view of the purple house next to him with the five foot weeks in the front lawn? To each his own. If you want to live that way, don't buy in an HOA. But anyone that tells you they were not given the docs in advance is probably lying to you. Even at a closing you'd be asked if you were given a copy of the docs in advance, did your read and approve them.
on't
A friend of mine bought in a HOA and totally reviewed and approved of the rules presented at that time. What he didn't approve of was that those rules were just the start of what has become a never ending addition of stupid rules. As an example, shortly after he move there his inlaws came for a visit. (This is a subdivision where the minimum lot size is two acres and my friends house sits on 4 acres.) He inlaws came in a $200K motor home and spent two nights. They pulled totally in the driveway at the back part of the house. The motor home could only be seen from one side of the house. Two weeks after that he received a notice from the HOA that they had voted a new rule that disallowed the parking of a motorhome overnight anywhere within the subdivision.
A few months after that, he pulled the fuselage of a plane he is building in his 4-car garage out onto the driveway to do a trial mounting of the wings. He just had it out there for Saturday and Sunday before putting everything back inside his garage. A few days after that, he received notice that the board had again imposed a new rule against building an airplane in his garage. That is only a couple of the rules that have been implemented since he bought his home.
NOPE!
Ah, you are talking about a municipality. The HOA is a totally different beast.
Anybody in an HOA in Florida who is not familiar with the state statutes regarding their type of HOA and in particular FL 617, which deals with corporations not for profit, probably deserves what they get.
And that goes double for anyone who gets on the board.
Been there, done that,
Charlie
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