Sorry about having to start a new string....for some reason, I can't reply to anything this morning. Oh, well....
First off, Al. I appreciate your opinion. However, I highly doubt my 63 year old retired school teacher neighbor of 11 years would want to "pull my leg", especially given the fact that he told me about all of this 3 or 4 years ago and I dismissed all of it as hogwash. He got his advice from a retired Chemical Engineer friend of his who has taken up HVAC advice/studies in old houses as a hobby. In fact, he showed me the study he did (the retired engineer) that showed where he tracked the BTU's he was getting from Citizen's Gas here in Indy (if he had to, how he rigged it up to monitor it I have no idea). Anyway, basically he nailed Citizen's with the Utility Board of Indiana for not supplying the same or adequate BTU's when the temps got below 10 degrees. Seems they were cutting in some Coke gas (or something akin, I'm not sure I remember) , which is not as good as pure Ng. That is all fine and dandy, but they weren't telling anyone about it and then they turned around and charged people as if they'd supplied only pure Ng, when the impure supply was causing people to use more gas to generate the same BTU's. No, that all doesn't mean squat. However, I think they're trustworthy. I have an excellent BS meter and it doesn't tick when they're talking. I highly doubt a 75 year old retiree (the ChemE) would get his kicks by "getting over" on a 42 year old stranger, and I've seen his house firsthand. Also, regarding the bill/check, Citizen's policy is any amount overbilled over the amount of $100 is refunded in a check to the client.
Now on to some followup.....
Thanks, HeatMan, for your time on this...
Some other points/follow-ups:
1.) There is already visqueen laid down on the crawl space floor. It's not sealed to the walls, but it comes to within at least 6 inches of the walls. Is that good enough re the moisture/mold? Since the visqueen is already down, and assuming I lay in the insulation on the walls and out on the floor of the crawl space 2 ft out from the wall, do I still need "thermostatic vents"? How much are they approximately? If the insulation is down, and the visqueen is also, does the natural heat from the earth (55 degrees, no?) still heat up the air in the crawl space in the winter and cool it down in summer? I assume it work for us either way, no?
2.) Regarding the hole in the floor. Hopefully this helps with #3 below. What I'm talking about is, in a location somewhere near the middle of the house, cutting in a 9"x14" hole in the floor that would expose the crawl space (obviously I'd put some sort of grate/grill on it). Then, to promote circulation, running the bath fan 24/7, creating a flow from the outside into the crawl space through the one unplugged crawl space vent, to the hole cut in the floor, to the bath fan and up and out. That would also seem to mitigate the moisture/mold potential in the crawl space, even though we have the visqueen down already. If you reccommend not cutting the hole, is it still ok to plug up the crawl space vents since there is visqueen down, or should I still install the thermostatic vents? If so, how many, one for the entire crawl space or one for each of the 6 vents tot he crawlspace from the outside?
3.) Regarding #4 below and the venting of the boiler: I checked the unit and its a Weil McClain, kind of hard to read the stamped plate with the specs on it, but it looks like model number on the boiler is "PCG-5", "Series 3". It says it has an A.G.A. rating of 114,000 BTU's per hour input and 112,000 BTU's output per hour. On visual inspection, there only seems to be the one exhaust vent going straight up and out in its own flue separate from the fireplace. No incoming air supply from what I can tell. Would the standard aluminum tube (I believe it to be either 4 or 5 inches in diameter), connected to the garage window and outflowing to the floor be good enough/beneficial? It would seem that the cold air from outside in the winter would naturally want to flow down through the tube (garage is somewhat heated with a baseboard unit of its own out there, plus the garage is on a slab, heating it a little). If it doesn't have an air source, what has it been using before now?...just relying on the basically unsealed spaces between the garage door and the frame?
4.) What does that BTU rating above equate to ? The 1,000 BTU's you mentioned below?
5.) What's a sealed combustion unit? Benefits? How much? Is that a totally new unit/system? I was told to replace the unit we have now would be about $5-10,000. ....or, simply buy the heat blower attachment for the AC unit in the attic for about $800. Is that as efficient/desireable as the boiler?
6.) On the water temp in the system: I already turned this down from 180 to
140. That should be ok, no? Regarding the Outdoor reset, what is that? An attachment? or should it already be on the unit? How much is it if not?
7.) Regarding the water heater: Its a Kenmore "Power Miser 5", at least
10-12 years old, in the garage next to the boiler. I do not have it wrapped...should I? What provisions do I need to make for the vertical pipes on the outside of it? Wrap those in it to, or tuck it inside of those? On the temp dial, there is not a degree. Instead, on one end of the dial is "Very Hot" and the other end is "Hot", with letters going from "Very Hot", then "C", "B", "A" and then "Hot". It was on "B", and I turned it down to "A", one level above "Hot". Got a guess as to where that puts it, degree wise?
Thanks for all your time on this. I am currently unemployed and have been for about 4 months now, so any dollars I can save to avoid $300/month gas bills this winter is GREATLY appreciated! It sounds like the crawl space insulation is a no-brainer. Am I OK with the R-13?
Thanks!
Eric Volk Indy
----- Original Message ----- From: "HeatMan" Newsgroups: alt.home.repair Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 6:52 PM Subject: Re: HVAC questions...
Neighbors lie sometimes to impress you...
>
> The rest of my comments are in line.
>
> "BuddyBiancalana" wrote in message
> news:aNidnUof_dBnHOrenZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com...
> > Live in Indianapolis, @ 1,700 sq. ft. single story ranch style brick house
> > built in the early 1950's with a crawl space and hot water/gas heat.
> > Central A/C was retro-fitted in the early 80's, with all the vents > insulated
> > and the duct work (the insulated flexible tubes/hoses) running in the > attic.
> >
> > We paid $250-320 per month from December to March last year (yikes).
> > However, in spite of the prices being 25-30% higher that year than the > year
> > previous, our bills were about the same.
> >
> > Why? Answer: 1.) I replaced the skirt under our front door (the previous
> > one was missing about 7 inches of it, so you could see light inside when
> > sitting in our car outside and 2.) there was a 6ft.x 6ft. square area in > our
> > attic (just above our bed in fact) that had NO insulation. Tossed some
> > (about 8 inches) of the fiberfill over it and it made a HUGE difference. > As
> > a result, our bills at least stayed flat compared to the year before. > >
> Good start.
>
> > Anyway, I was relating this to my neighbor, and he said he paid about $400
> > TOTAL last year for the same size house with same attachments/features. > The
> > differences? As follows:
> >
> > 1.) He insulated his crawl space by stapling insulation (R-13) just below
> > the joists along the rim board of the house and going down to the ground > of
> > the crawl space and out about 2 ft. He stated that the cold comes down > thru
> > the earth and also across out about 18 inches.
> >
> Good idea, but I'd take it a step further. Do all that and lay a sheet of
> haevy plastic (visqueen) on the dirt. That will trap moisture.
>
> > 2.) He plugged up and insulated over 4 of the 5 grate vents that went to
> > the crawl space. The fifth he left open to let in some air flow. He
> > indicated the vents were originally put in to be in code in the 1950's, > but
> > that those codes are now obsolete and that you only had to account for 15
> > cubic ft. of air flow per minute per person, which is accomplished by the
> > following...
> >
> Nope. No way. That will really hurt more than help, especially if he didn't
> lay any plastic down. If he didn't lay plastic, he's working on a major
> mold problem. At the box stores, there are thermostatic vents for your
> crawl. Install them instead. That way, when it does warm up under the
> house, it will open the vents to cool down.
>
> > 3.) He cut a 9"x14" hole in the floor near the center of the house and had
> > it vented to just above the grade in the crawl space. Apparently this
> > creates enough flow....also...the earth temp in the middle of the crawl
> > space of 56 degrees heats the cold outside air before it can come up to > the
> > living area. He also indicated that he runs a bathroom fan 24/7 to assist
> > in drawing the air flow.
> >
> Do what? That one went right over my head.
>
> > 4.) He "vented" his gas furnace (in the garage in both houses, his and
> > mine). He basically cut a 4 inch round hole in his garage window, > inserted
> > a dryer vent fitting into it and then ran aluminum flexible tubing from > the
> > window down onto the floor. He stated that this gives the furnace all the
> > oxygen it needs, while without this, with the garage being largely sealed,
> > it doesn't get enough oxygen and the gas flame has some orange to it. He
> > also said since the garage is on a slab, the earth's temp heats up that > air
> > (the garage has a radiator in it, though not a thermostat). Is this safe?
> >
> Maybe yes, maybe no. Codes require 1 square inch per 1,000 BTU's if there
> is a direct connection between the appliance and the outside. As I
> remember, it's 5 square inches per 1,000 BTU's if it's ducted like you say
> his is. Better bet would be to drop some money and get a sealed combustion
> unit.
>
> BTW, furnaces heat air, boilers heat water.
>
> > 5.) He dialed down the temp of the water running through the system from
> > 180 degrees to about 110 degrees. He said this causes his electric pump > to
> > run more continuously, but that it is designed for that and that it uses a
> > minimum of electricity. He also said this makes for a more even keeled
> > temp, in the system and all around in the living space. Safe?
> >
> Uh, safe? Probably. Sane? No. If your house had a heat load run on it
> and it has a boiler, it's a pretty safe bet that it was designed for the
> water temp to be at 180°. In extreme cold weather, 110° water won't keep
> the house warm. It's a good idea, but I'd go with something more like
> outdoor reset. ODR is like cruise control for the heating system. At 65°
> outside, the water temp may be at 95°. At design temp (15°?), water temp
> would be at 180°. The water temp varies with the outdoor temp. >
> > 6.) He also turned down his hot water heater from 140 degrees to 110. > >
> Nuts. Plain crazy. Leigonella bacteria THRIVE at about that temp (actually
> a little lower). Besides, dishwashers need about 130° water to clean the
> dishes correctly. In my area, it's cheaper to heat water with gas than 110v
> household current.
>
> > Your thoughts on these are greatly appreciated if you are anything close > to
> > an expert or professional. I am considering implementing all of these.
> > Should cost less than $250 total, including retrofitting my garage window
> > for the vent and the insulation.
> >
> My suggestion, less the boiler and ODR will be a bit more than $250, but the
> payback should be better.
>
> > I also installed some magnetic vinyl over the two air intakes in the > ceiling
> > at either end of my house that are used for the a/c (when I lay on the > couch
> > underneath on of them in the winter, I can feel the cold air cascading
> > down). I figure if the AC isn't being used, why let warm air up there to
> > get cooled down and then fall into the living area? Also, should I use
> > these over the outflow a/c vents in each room in addition to simply > closing
> > them?
> >
> As long as you remove them before AC season, that won't hurt anything. >
> > Finally, the thing I have the most doubt over is the plugging up the crawl
> > space vents, except one, then cutting the hole in the floor with a grating
> > on top of it.
> >
> Read my comments above.
>
> > I want to implement all these, but need a little reassurance that I'm not
> > putting my family at risk. He's on a "level pay" system with our Gas
> > company of $70/month, and just got his "settle up at the end of the year"
> > statement, which was accompanied by a check for $355 made out to him. > Nice.
> >
> Did you see the check? Around here, they credit your account by lowering
> the payments. That would mean $30 less per month. Read my first line.... >
>