I am planning on replacing my driveway, and want to install a Hydronic Heating System in the new driveway. I have heard for a down and dirty way of this you can use 1/2" PVC.
What I need to know is how to do the layout, configuration or any other information that would help.
I plan on using oil for the liquid in the system, because of lower evaporation, and it would carry more heat than glycol, or brine, also I can order butt loades for clean mineral oil from where I work cheap.
As I said any information other than "Call an HVAC man" will help.
Water is better at carrying heat that oil, that is why we don't have oil in are car radiators.
Water will not evaporate from a closed system.
Heating a driveway is going to cost you some real big $$$, ??? or £££. Judging from the fact you want to do this on the cheap, you are wasting your time and money because you will never be willing to pay the cost of running it.
Find a good healthy neighbor boy or girl and save your money.
Unless its put together with Goodyear rubber..LOL...
As most around here have found.
Bingo.
I suggest you dont do that....have one leak...just ONE little leak..the EPA should they find out...will have your ass for more than 5 or 6 of those systems installed by a team of highly paid workers will....and if you go oil, its no longer hydronic.
Umm...you said it once, and its still your best advice. Like it or not.
As the other fellow said, water is one of the best heat carriers known. It's not all that great a conductor (for example compared to copper) but it carries a LOT of heat.
Hey, I've got a tooth that needs to be pulled. What can you tell me, except to see an oral surgeon or dentist?
I've got bugs in the house. What can you tell me, except to call an exterminator?
There's burglars in the bedroom. What can you tell me, except to call the cops?
My sink keeps over flowing. What can you tell me except call a plumber?
Why the resistance to letting contractors who know what they are doing do what they know?
but oil holds heat longer than water, therefore will carry heat farther than water. As for not wanting to contact a HVAC person about this project, let me ask you a question: How many heat zones are needed for a 40x20 drive way
1, 2, 10, 20? Why take a simple project and turn it into a freaking NASA Space launch, all this type of system is: tubing to radiate heat, a pump, heating element, and a tank
I'm sorry for thinking this was a Do It Yourself group. I guessed wrong, you go call your Electrical Contractors when you need a light buld replaced.
One if done right....done several...and some much larger than yours.
How many BTU's are required for your project?
40X20 huh? Climate?
You got your advice, and unless you know what you are doing, the advice was dead on..you can create a bigger headache than you are saving.. For F R E E advice, I would say you got your moneys worth too..
You don't want the fluid to hold the heat, you want it to give it up, and transfer it to, in this case the driveway. Another thing, in my wildest dreams I would not use PVC tubing for this project, unless you want to do all over again next year! There is PEX tubing designed for this purpose that will hold up 100 times better than PVC! PVC tubing would be one of my last choices!
I also wonder if you can afford to run this driveway heat once you get it running. From time to time I do HVAC work for a national banking center in our city. They have heated sidewalks and never use them, costs allot less to shovel and sand them. Keep in mind it is like trying to heat the outdoors! Do you know how many thousand BTU it will take to heat 800 sq/ft of driveway? Do you know the proper way to lay the tubing to get the best bang for your buck? You need to lay it at a specific spacing, and 3-4 loops to keep the heat uniform. Screw it up and you get hot spots that waste heat and cold spots that don't heat the drive enough to keep the ice off. It is not a simple project of "tubing to radiate heat, a pump, heating element and tank", it is much more complicated than that! But, hey! You have it all figured out already, so why are you here! Greg
But the farther the heat is carried the better, it may be slower but easier on the heater,and pump
Another thing, in my wildest dreams I would not use PVC tubing for this project, unless you want to do all over again next year!
Why, what is wrong with PVC?
There is PEX tubing designed for this purpose that will hold up 100 times better than PVC
At what cost?
I also wonder if you can afford to run this driveway heat once you get it running.
What would the cost be?
From time to time I do HVAC work for a national banking center in
To what temprature are you talking 33, 35, 40 degrees?
Do you know the proper way to lay the tubing to get the best bang for your buck?
Wasn't that one of my question "layout, configuration" that never got anwsered?
You need to lay it at a specific spacing, and 3-4 loops to keep the heat uniform. Screw it up and you get hot spots that waste heat and cold spots that don't heat the drive enough to keep the ice off. It is not a simple project of "tubing to radiate heat, a pump, heating element and tank", it is much more complicated than that!
Then tell me what I asked for, neither of you HVAC people have answered my quetions, you just threw up some bull about seer ratings, BTU questions, and the such, and not answering any of the questions.
Below note normal Skilled Trade smart as* answer # 1 But, hey! You have it all figured out already, so why are you here!
I was here to get advice, but got spammed for not wanting HVAC people, because you people are all Skilled Trade and I know what kind of an ASS you can be, and I can say that because I am part of the skilled trade, I am an AWS Certified Welder, but I can give advice without being a jerk about it.
That is why I didn't want to mess with HVAC people, NEVER MIND you won, you brow beat me out of it, as a matter of fact I don't even want replace the drive now, and screw the snow. I was told I would not get any help off the NG's other than bolsters. I asked for some simple advice and all I got was smart a** comments, spammers and no information what so ever on what was needed.
Wrong. IF its not being given up, that means, its not working. Simple thermal dynamics.
LOL..if you have to ask....
Whats it gonna cost to dig that drive up to do it all over again, but right?
You have YET to provide ANY information that would, or could lead ANYONE to give even a ballpark.
And as of yet, you have yet to give any information that matters. No one has a damn clue what your design temp will be...
Has ANYONE seen your layout, other than YOU?
No ones said a damn thing about SEERS. BTU ratings are a given, but you knew that...so is location, and alot more information that no one knows..
Above, note normal know it all DIY wanting free advice and not getting it throwing a hissy.
Big deal..I know a 12 year old who has a dad that is a skilled, and certified welder, and hes as good as most. He cant design a heated drive however, and I dont claim to weld near as well..
Now..now..had you answered in a logical manner, perhaps you would have gotten some good information...instead...throw your fit... IF you think this was bad....go ask in the home group for us...LOL....
The design of the way the tubing is layed out takes care of this. If you can't understand that, you are a long long way from being able to design the layout.
About 10% of the cost of replacing the PVC. If PVC was better why don't the pros use it?
They are skilled trades people. That is what you are not and with out the skills you are not going to be able to do the job. I have seen these same people you think are against you give a great deal of free advice to help someone do a job when all they need is a little advice. On the other hand, you need more than advice, and you are not willing to take the good advice you are given, like the PVC thing. (BTW PEX is about the only thing out there that is likely to last more than one year and not cost more than moving to Florida.) They are not being jerks, you are.
You got very good advice. Your plan will not work, you need a professional to plan the work after they are on site and factor in local conditions, and your specific situation. You also need to consider if the idea of a heated drive is practical from a cost of use perspective.
Because it is very fragile compared to PEX, which is designed for your use!
A hell of allot cheaper than tearinig up the concrete and doing it over!
Given the minimal information that you have, you have been given the best information we can. We don't know your climate, outdoor temps, the temp you want to run the slab.
As for being a smart ass. I did not until you started your bitching because you did not like the answer you got! Hell, do it your way, what the hell do I know! Just because I have some experience with floor heat I thought I may know more than you, but maybe not! Greg
The best advice you can get here is to find someone who knows what they are doing to at least evaluate the feasibility of what you are dreaming of doing! I worked in a building that had three access drives with embedded heating grids that used live steam (this was in NYC where many of the buildings are supplied with steam for heat and A/C from central sources in the city) and none of the systems were ever used because of the potential expense - it was more economical to manually clear snow!
You are asking for advice without providing even the minimum information needed to determine what you are trying to do - the best advice you could get was the advice that you announced you didn't want in your original article - contact a professional HVAC or a civil engineer before you start with your folly!
Do what I did. Fly to Minneapolis and take a class. Or pay me to do the design. Or let me refer you to someone that can do the design for you.
Butt loads of mineral oil? TP will love you forever with that!
Seriously, a proper system will NEVER need any additional water added. You can use mineral oil, but the pump/circulator will be a real pain to maintain....
While everyone else has tried to help without much success (according to you), why am I wasting my time? There are contractors out there that will help you a lot and let you do most of the work, but they charge for their time.
Would you do open heart surgery on you or your family with the advice of the people on this NG?
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