Heat pump sucks the heat out of the atmosphere, then spits it back out inside. As the outdoor temperature drops, it gets harder to suck the heat and since the outside coil will be operating below air temperature in sub-freezing environment, it will accumulate ice. The system needs to run a defrost mode by running in air conditioner mode ocasionally.
The combination of temperature difference it must create and defrost cycle makes a heat pump relatively inefficient in extreme cold.
In the Pacific NW, gas should be cheaper. I'd say go with a 90%+ condensing furnace. State of Washington might have a tax credit program for energy efficient furnace like Oregon.
OK, are you guys finished with the "back patting" for a while ??????? :-).
A huge Thank You to both of you, this information is great and really helps in figuring out where to go for now. Not sure I have a decision at this time, but I sure have enough info to speak with the HVAC sub from the builder, as well as a few others.
I am the opposite of you when it comes to heat, it doesn't bother me until it hits 90 with high humidity. In general, ceiling fans do us quite well. I lived 26 years in Southern California with no AC and it wasn't a problem :-).
Thanks for the info and advice. If memory serves, you are about 2 hours South of where we live so the climate you are in would be very similar. Great advice, I will be contacting Puget Sound Energy next week to see what they have to say. Thanks as well for NOT pointing me to those numerous charts and graphs. They would just bore and confuse me :-). Now that you folks have given me the right info to ask the pro's about, I feel much more comfortable in making an intelligent, well at least semi-intelligent, decision.
It doesn't get below 30 often in this area, we have been here 12 years and I don't think I have seen it that low for more than a day or two at a time, and that I've seen only once or twice. It will hover in mid-30's for a week or so during the winter, but that is not every year either.
And thanks to you folks I now have the knowledge to ask for the right numbers and to be confident that I can tell if a quality job was done in gathering those numbers.
This has been a tremendous help. A special Thanks to KJPRO, the info you sent is superb and will let me make a much better decision than I would have. I don't feel at the mercy of sales folks anymore, in this area at least :-).
I am going to sit down with a couple of HVAC folks in the area, including the one who is working for the builder, and run the following scenarios by them:
HP for main heat and cooling without gas furnace backup
HP for main heat and cooling with gas furnace backup
Gas furnace, as is, with ducting and coil to enable addition of HP or AC at a later date
Gas furnace with AC
Gas furnace with ceiling fans
I think that covers them all, it will be interesting to see what response I get to cost/benefit and ROI trade-offs.
Ah, I just looked at this reply closer, what I meant was ~30 (tilde 30) meaning "about" 30, not minus. No way am I living in a place with -(minus)
30 :-). One of the joys of computers and screen fonts is that some characters look a bit "iffy" at times, and I had forgotten about that one. Sorry, folks, for the confusion, my bad.
So, to be sure I understand the technology, the heat pump delivers heating generally for less cost than even a high efficiency gas furnace, as long as the temperature is most often above a "floor" which is in the low to mid
30's F above zero. The added bonus is that at the same time cooling is delivered. The downside is that if the temperatures are often below that floor, then supplemental heat generation is required. Which method used, electric/propane/natural gas, can depend upon what sources are available in a given area and at what price. Have I got this right so far?
The alternative to get both the heating and cooling is to add an AC unit to an existing furnace. In this case, the cost of fuel on an ongoing basis is higher than a HP, given that temperatures are generally above the "floor", but the initial costs may be less. The decision to add AC or an HP could then be looked at as a simple cost trade-off, as the end result for heating/cooling would be the same, correct?
And in all cases it is imperative to get the proper sizing information from a pro in the area and to ensure that the ducting which is place can manage these types of systems. How am I doing so far?
One thing I have forgotten to ask is about ongoing maintenance. We generally spend about $125 a year to have a heating company do a yearly inspection and "tune-up" on our furnace. Are the costs of maintaining an HP or AC unit comparable, or should I plan for other "normal" maintenance items? And slightly OT, what about this "duct cleaning" service that is being offered?
Yes, if the ductwork is inadequite it will cost you not only in operational cost, but will effect the longevity of the equipment. (and remember, HP's require larger ducting then standard heating & cooling systems)
I don't feel there is enough difference to warrant a price difference.
The answer on maintenance is no, the cost for maintenance of AC and HP units is not as high as maintaining a gas furnace in the Pacific Northwest. Lots of HVAC people recommend lots of maintenance on AC and HP units but there is little that goes wrong. Keep the outside units clean, keep the inside heat exchanger clean and that's pretty much it until something happens. Our AC received light duty for years and didn't receive any maintenance (except cleaning) for nearly 20 years and only oiling and adding 1/2 pound of freon in the last year. Gas furnaces have complicated controls and and open flame and definitely need periodic maintenace (just not as often as some dealers would like you to sign up for). Our gas furnace has remained very clean burnng for 3 years, but in that time required replacement of parts twice (covered by the warranty) that would have been very expensive. And neither replacements had anything to do with normal maintenance, otherwise they would not have been paid as we do not have a maintenance contract.
125 a year might be a little high for a gas furnace but would be very high for maintenance of a HP or AC.
As you are not in the field, don't go giving advice on something you know little about!
Bullshit! Just tell me exactly what should be checked every year to insure that a unit is operating properly.
While you're at it, can you also tell us what needs to be inspected on a 'gas fired' furnace?
All depends.....'lots of maintenance' no, just annual service. (there is a difference)
Good advice...
Wrong advice, I'd rather fix something simple on a routine service than to have a major repair do to poor maintenance.
Remember, things are not made like they once used to be.
Again, don't be giving advice on some trade that you don't fully understand. Routine maintenance schedules vary for different equipment, installed in different conditions.
(i.e. some furnaces need annual inspections, some don't....it all depends) For safety they should all be checked annually.
Checking how the burners burn, is not the only thing that should be checked!
And now you all of a sudden know what it cost/takes to do our job eh? Why the difference in cost, isn't an hour an hour? Same service call for both, they both take a tech with tools.
I guess we should charge $30/hr so we can make minimum wage like you to eh? Area's vary in price range, with out being in the business, and knowing the prices in an area, you just can't say a price.
in a cold climate i would not get the heat pump.. go for the natural gas if it is available in your area....the heat pump takes heat from the outside and brings it inside.....in a sub degree outside you dont have much heat to get??? so try heating up the inside with natural gas..... in south louisiana where i am the temp might get to 40 or so and sometimes it might get to 20-30 but that is rare.. so a heat pump here is perfect if you want it.. i got natural gas and it works fine, natural gas here is cheap so that might be something to look at when installing a system..... hope this helped....
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.