Heat pump in basement?

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On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:32:44 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com"

It would never work, Think about it, what does a heat pump do? your basement would end up as cold as outside.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

You would turn your basement into a walk in freezer.
--
Claude Hopper ? 3 :) 7/8

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responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736-.htm mencarj wrote:
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Personally I think it will work ,as a HVAC Contractor with 35 years experience and just as many working/installing Heat Pump systems, here's my opinion, First they make a air source heat pump using a 12000 btu air source heat pump to heat hot water, Rheem is one brand, shows it can be installed in basement.So if you have a small unit say a 18000 or 24000 BTU and it clearly works for the Rheem domestic hot water heater why would it not work for a slightly larger unit. Also if you did install the outdoor unit in the basement and have the duct work in the basement ,put in couple a three supply registers to dump warm air into the basement with a small return in the return duct in the basement, if it still does not work try rejecting the discharged air (using duct ) to a casement window sending the air outside. -------------------------------------
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On Mar 5, 5:52 pm, mencarj_at_yahoo_dot snipped-for-privacy@foo.com (mencarj) wrote:

why do people suddenly respond to thread over 3 years old?
Mark
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responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/Heat-pump-in-basement-316736-.htm mencarj wrote:
Mark wrote:

Because I'm new to the thread -------------------------------------
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On 3/6/2011 10:47 AM, mencarj wrote:

You got here the Dilbert way. Study up "usenet", f*ck the homeclonershub and come join us the "real" way. Using the homeownersclub has a habit of making smart people look stupid. Not your fault, just a mistake. Use usenet.
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On 3/5/2011 7:02 PM, Mark wrote:

He comes from the hellish place called the home owners shrub.
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On Sat, 05 Mar 2011 22:52:57 +0000, mencarj wrote:

Look at how a heat pump or AC works (heat pump is AC in reverse). One coil gets hot and the other gets cold. If you want a 20 degree rise in temp upstairs you will get a 20 degree drop in the basement. That is assuming 100% efficiency. Eventually the basement will have to get as cold as the outside or colder in order to get a sufficient heat rise in your living space. At about 35 degrees or so a heat pump does not work very efficiently and needs extra heat.
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On 3/5/2011 8:22 PM, Michael Dobony wrote:

And as well that's assuming the same volume of heated space as compared to the basement (which may be reasonably close for a ranch style w/ a full unfinished basement, but for anything w/ partially finished basement or larger heated area in comparison, the ratio would be <1:1 by that ratio of volumes.
It's a worthless idea; there's not even remotely close to the required heat source/sink heat capacity available; the water heater idea works only owing to it being a much lower demand in comparison to space heat.
--
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On 3/5/2011 5:52 PM, mencarj wrote:

It will work great if you want the entire basement to be a walk in freezer/cooler.
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On Mar 5, 5:52 pm, mencarj_at_yahoo_dot snipped-for-privacy@foo.com (mencarj) wrote:

So, with 35 years of HVAC experience, one of your solutions is to put 3 supply registers in the basement along with the heat pump? One of the stupidist things posted here in a long time. Why not put a windmill on the roof of your car to generate electric to power the car. We could all drive for free.
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The heat pump in basement idea is interesting, but would not work unless you had some way to increase the surface area for heat transfer. For example, if you had buried a network of pipes in the floor before pouring the cement, you could circulate water through there, and then have it go through a radiator. Behind the radiator you could have a squirrel cage/centrifugal blower. Your only cost to maintain the air temp in the basement would be for an efficient water pump and efficient squirrel cage blower. This could make a heat pump very efficient.
Of course, if you have that setup, it would be much better to simply use a heat pump designed to directly work with the water or whatever fluid is in the pipes. That would be a geothermal system.
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It's an interesting idea to use the basement as a heat source. But as you point out, the real question is how much the basement temperature will drop. Dropping that temperature is going to take some heat away from the house through colder floors, more heat loss through basement ducts, etc.
And another big issue I see is summer. Almost all heat pumps also serves as AC. So, in the summer, you're raising the basement temperature and again, how much is the key question. That would obviously depend on the size of the basement. Large, open, full basement would be the best case. Even then, I think it's highly questionable.
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responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/heat-pump-in-basement-316736-.htm nahcr wrote: I live in a smallish older townhome near Washington DC. There are 4 connected units so that the total basement (part basement but mostly crawl space) is about 8700 cubic feet. The basement is about half underground and there are no divisions between the units. The above ground area has some kind of foam type insulation. It is cement floored with concrete block walls and a cement ceiling. The basement is not heated or cooled but the water pipes have not frozen in the 12 years I have been here and I have never heard anyone complain that their pipes freeze. There is also a radon system in the basement because of a mild radon problem (less than 10 pci) The area that I want to heat and cool is about 17000 cubic feet. The primary heat source for about half that area would be radiant floor heating. The basement is not and cannot be used for anything except water heaters, water pipes and telephone utilities. Under those circumstances would putting a heat pump or two heat pumps in the basement make sense? I would like to do it for aesthetic reasons primarily, but also because it seems to me that even if the heat pumps cool the basement in the winter or heat it in the summer it doesn’t matter since the space can’t be used, and because of the large volume of basement space, the air going to the heat exchanger would at least be somewhat warmer than the exterior air in winter and cooler in the summer). My only concern would be if somehow the heat pumps could make the area go below freezing. Also, during the summer, there could be some condensate which would have to be removed.
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No good.
I'm not a heating specialist, but I can figure out that there's not enough of a heat sink in the basement air to accomplish anything.
Heat pumps are done with long lengths of tubing underground because of the huge thermal mass of the ground.
--
Dan Espen

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writes:

But a basement would not have enough heat to warm a house before it was cooled below the heat pumps ability to extract heat.
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Sure an air conditioner is a type of heat pump.
But we agree that a basement isn't going to cut it.
--
Dan Espen

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responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/heat-pump-in-basement-316736-.htm nahcr wrote: Thanks for your responses. However, i still dont understand why a heat pump won't work. The heat pump we currently have is outside and it functions fine until it gets really cold. So I would think that putting it in the basement with a large air volume would mean that it would function just as well, and that perhaps there would be a slight efficiency gain on very cold and windy days or on very hot days since the basement is sheltered from the wind and snow and shaded from the sun. My situation is unusual because first in proportion to the size of the house, the basement is very large, and second, the basement cannot be used except to run pipes and keep the water heaters for the 4 units. I would like to put the pumps there because they are ugly and that will get them out of my yard. If the heat pump worked just as well in the basement as outside, i would be quite satisfied. Is there some reason why this would not be true? Is there any danger to the occupants in putting the pumps in the basement? If the temperature outside went down to say 10 degrees F on the coldest day of the year, would pipes in the basement freeze because of the heat pump?
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I'll say it this way: Heat pumps can only move heat (BTUs) around. Located outside, your heat pump can exchange an infinite number of BTUs from the air since it just grabs "new" air with a new supply of BTUs with its fan as needed. So, it will work whether the outside air is warm or cold pushing the BTUs in or out of the outside air (and your house). If you put the heat pump in your basement, the BTUs the heat pump can grab are limited by what the walls, floor and other materials contain or can transfer in/out. Since the BTUs can't easily flow in or out of the basement volume of air, walls and concrete, the heat transfer is not limited by the pump but by its source of BTUs.
On a hot or cold day when your heat pump is trying to cool or heat your house, it will run out of BTUs that can be pulled or pushed into your basement. It then loses efficiency and will just run without doing any heating or cooling. Meanwhile, your basement will either be way too hot or way too cold. You may not care what the temperature of the basement is, but your pipes could freeze on a cold day outdoors as the heat pump sucks heat from the basement to put into the house. On a warm day outside, the heat build up in the basement could be dangerous and damage wiring or the house structure. Or, the heat could simply make the heat pump so inefficient, it wouldn't cool the house; it would just waste electricity.
If you could fill your basement with water which has a much higher BTU capacity per unit volume than air and concrete and use that water for your heat pump, you might make your idea work; but there's also a good chance that you would have a block of ice in the basement for much of the winter and a pool of steaming water for much of the summer.
A neighbor of mine installed a ground water heat pump to heat and cool his house. For a house of about 2500 square feet and well insulated, it takes the water from 5 wells to supply enough BTUs winter and summer to keep the house comfortable. It's very energy efficient because the high volume of well water, either coming or going is always about 50 degrees F +/- 10 degrees., so it can either give or take plenty of BTUs, but drilling the wells was expensive.
Tomsic

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responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/heat-pump-in-basement-316736-.htm nahcr wrote:
Thank you Tomsic, you have made the problem clear for me.
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