Heat pump EER

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What makes 1 type heat pump have a higher seer or eer over another, is it just compressor manufacturer?
confused Scott
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Im geuessing here, but coil size would be the #1 factor ....
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On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:58:24 -0600, snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (m Ransley) wrote:

Guessing again? Gee, like that's some big freaking suprise out of you. Bubba
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This is Turtle.
Scotty , there is 3 measuring scales or yard stick you will use on a heat pump.
SEER , C.O.P. @ 47F outdoors , and H.S.P.F. at [ region IV ].
If you live in the very South U.S.A. Look at the SEER real heavy and COP and HSPF last.
If you live in the Northern states or even in the middle states. Look at the COP and the HSPF Real hard and the SEER lightly.
Now HVAC companys and people talk in COP and HSFP for comparing Heating Ability only of heat pump system as to getting the most bang for the buck. If you live in a cold climate you want the highest COP and HSPF number that you can get and the normal SEER ratings. If you live in a warm climate like in the southern states. You want a high SEER and maybe a high COP & HSPF if you can afford it but not a real need.
Now HVAC companys & People talk in SEER rating for the cooling ability only. If you live in the South. Get the highest SEER you can get and the COP & HSPF just normal numbers. If you live in the Northern states Get the Highest COP & HSPF you can get and then when it comes to SEER just get a 10 or 12 seer maybe but no big deal about getting a high SEER.
If you really want to talk SEER or COP or HSPF Ratings e-mail me here at this newsgroup address for it is a good e-mail address.
TURTLE
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Turtle, interesting reply. To be honest, I only looked at SEER numbers thinking that the others will follow suit.
Now, Trane and American Standard equipment are about the best Heat Pumps money can buy, but the companies LIE about their names. I have seen, and Ohio Edison has pointed out that just because a unit says 11 seer on it that it isn't! Our main inspector wanted me to get him some equipment at his home and he choose another brand because of the ARI ratings of Trane, they lie on their equipment labels, at least five years ago they did. The ARI numbers were TERRIBLE on 12 seers. To get the 12 seer rating you had to put the kitchen sink into it! But the reliability of the units were and are the very best.
Now, what ticks me off is the cost of the higher COP and SEER units, American standard especially. Talk about over priced! They increase the coil size by 5 -10% which improves BTU capacity, They then use a smaller compressor that produces more BTU's since the coil is bigger, and then they charge upwards to a$1000 more for them! Heck, I can get Geothermal units for the same price as Tranes 12 seer unit!
Just my opinion. but the major reason is coils size which allows a smaller compressor AND a lower amperage fan motor since their is more free air over the coil.
Rich
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Rich, can you expand on this a bit? I'm a bit confused. you say that Trane and AS are great, but companies lie about their names. What do you mean by this?

This too is pretty amazing. If it's as simple as that for the normal high SEER units? I'm assuming that the super high SEER units, like the Carrier 18 SEER system with R410A pull out the stops to get a SEER that high and actually cost more to manufacture. Or is it all just marketing...
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wrote:

This is Turtle.
Your listening to a HVAC service man speaking and see's a lot more that the average person what goes on in the hvac business and as whole and not just a customers point of view. All manufactor / brands of hvac equipment lie from time to time and if you think bad about one you will have to think bad about all of them. In the HVAC business Manufactor have salemenship first and then Qualityship last.
Answer to your last question here. The answer is SALEMENSHIP !
TURTLE
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On 1/22/2005 6:44 PM US(ET), TURTLE took fingers to keys, and typed the following:

My US Navy SHIP was named SALEM.
--
Bill

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wrote:

To be honest, I can't answer that with 100% certainty, but I do have an opinion which I can share. Others may have facts, and I'm sure the factory and reps have their standard sales crap as well.
I have sold American Standard units that were 16 Seer and to be honest, the only thing I could see on this five ton HP was a coils size that needed a flat bed truck to deliver, a smaller compressor and the air handler having a TXV being required. (Of course that's true with all their five ton systems). The unit has a two speed fan on the condenser and the air handler may be variable. Besides that I can't say there is anything spectacular that I haven't seen in 20 years dealing with this brand and Trane. I personally believe most of it is Marketing and cost of storage and shipping due to being such large units. Oh, the condenser size costs a little more too, but not a $1000 more.
Rich
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wrote:

This is Turtle.
Hey Rich let me give you one to laugh about here with a ArcoAire 14 SEER straight cooling system. Take a Arcoaire 5 ton 14 SEER straight cooling condenser. Arcoaire does not make a air handler or coil and gas furnace combo that will let it put out 14 SEER. This was as of 10 months ago but may have changed something since then but I dought it. The best they can match up with it is to get a 13.4 SEER but has a sticker on the condenser that states 14 SEER. The Magic here is what did they use to test this thing with when they run the Testing program to get a 14 SEER rating with it. Maybe Carrier loaned them a Air Handler to test with.
Also here is a off the wall one here. Goodman R-22 type has a 14 seer condenser that with the right combo you can get 15.4 SEER out of it but can't get it out of a 5 ton but must be 4 tons or less.
I think these manufactor made a joke out of this seer testing system.
TURTLE
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<Snipped>
I agree with you Turtle, I look at the ARI ratings and they amaze me at times. But do you think ARI allowed them to use a different manufactures unit for the rating? That is hard to believe. ARI lists the units ratings with the air handlers, what does it say in ARI for that unit your speaking of? It would be interesting.
In our area SEER means little after 12 since we don't use that much AC like you do. Heat Pumps being higher in efficiency is more important in this area.
I would rather put a 10 seer AC unit in with a desuperheater added on in my home than a 14 seer unit anyday. Heck, I'm about to put a water cooled condenser on my air conditioner as it is with as much hot water my four women use in a day time!
Rich
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This is Turtle.
Reply # 1 I have noticed that when you raise the seer rating on a system. The COP and HSPF go out the window. The rate the COP and HSPF at 47F and if the outdoor goes 1F under that it don't heat worth a toot at all. Very few people turn your heat on at 47F but turn your heat on at 35F or below and you find out your COP is gone with the wind.
Reply # 2 All the COP and SEER , and HSPF is rated at perfect conditions but take that unit out in the real world where it gets colder or hotter than the perfect condition you find out what it will really do and not say what it will do in different conditions. I've got some paperwork to get out and will talk on this in a hour or so from now.
TURTLE
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Turtle, your other post makes sense too, it is salesmanship. How can Ducane have $100 difference between a 10 Seer and a 14 Seer but American Standard is close to $1000 difference between a 112 and 14 seer? Its BS all the way! Now I understand that there is a BIG difference in quality, but there is no quality difference inside the same brand, only a bigger condenser, SMALLER compressor in the higher seer and a 2 speed motor! And I KNOW that the motor isn't the final cost!
Mark (Jr,) will back me up on this, and I can share it on Email if you want the name. I had a problem getting a 1/3 hp motor to match up to a 5 HP evaporator. The motors cost wholesale $398 each. I tried two OEM's that didn't work. I called the factory and he said he will send out three motors to me and try them all. I told him there is NO way I'm putting $1100 on my Master Card for these. He said and I'm not kidding here, "Don't worry about it, just get back with us and tell us what works. Our cost on these motors is LESS THAN $12 !!! They were all GE motors. BTW, NON of them fit! We welded brackets up to modify motor mounts. I'm telling you the truth on this. So, that Two Speed motor on condensing units in American Standard probably cost the factory $15??? Where is the $1000 upcharge? No wonder American Standard and United Technologies are making tons of money while the only thing out in the field is 'sell the lowest cost' and then the homeowners want a gold lined installation!
Now, on this post, Mark does the performance checks, I haven't looked up an AIR 47degree rating in over a year. Mark is an expert, and I mean EXPERT on heat pump testing, I always go back to him for this stuff because I don't use it enough. I'm surprised that you in the south get that involved with them,
Rich
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This is Turtle.
Years ago when they come out with the higher seer heat pumps and we would install a 10 seer heat pump system and I would put my hand in front of the air coming out and it would be freezing out side and I would say WOW that heat pump is putting out some hot air. Then when I would install a 12 or 13 seer heat pump and put my hand in front of the air coming out and say WOW that air ain't hot at all and it freezing out side. The little wheel in a Pee Brain started to moving and wanted to know what is this crazy stuff for the high seer quality heat pump system are suppose to be the best at cooling and heating in cold weather.
I found this.
When you raise the SEER rating the COP and the HSPF go down generally. When you lower the SEER rating the COP and The HSPF generally go up.
Then the Pee Brain looked farther here.
When you put the very large coil on the condenser and evaperator you can not keep the pressure up or differencial between the suction and head pressure and the COP and the HSPF take a beating. If you can't get a 125+ psi differencial between the head and suction. You don't have a COP or a HSPF. Also the only way to keep this Differencial pressure up is to use a Expanion valve on the condenser out side and on the evaperator inside. Flow raters should not be put on heat pumps for you can forget COP and HSPF if you use them.
Also I had some customer that would have a 14 seer Rheem heat pump and when it got 30F outdoors the Temperature Differencial of the inside would only be 12F at best. Then I had other customers with a 10 seer Goodman heat pump at 30F outdoors would have a 38F differencial on the air handler air coming out. This is not suppose to happen because everybody knows that a 14 SEER Rheem is suppose to kick a 10 SEER Goodman's Ass any day of the week.
SO
I'm into COP and the HSPF tring to figure it out and see who's got the COP or HSPF rating I like. Everybody has got their eyes on the SEER only for cooling and should be looking at the COP and HSPF for heating also.
TURTLE
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wrote:

Interesting. I assume you're looking at systems with roughly the same CFMs? I say this because I've been deeply studying my GSHP system that struggles to hit 20F differential at 1500CFM. I should have saved my lawn and lots of money and bought a 5 ton Goodman as I'd be getting more heat out than I am now! (said only partly tongue in cheek).
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This is Turtle.
Now Days you can't take it that when you buy the high dollar stuff for cooling that it will be the high dollar stuff for heating also. Sometimes you have to give up the COP & HSPF to get the High SEER Cooling rating out of a heat pump. The COP & HSPF are not commonly spoke of by installers today but SEER is the yard stick that sells equipment.
TURTLE
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Seer does sell. Some Geothermals separate their efficiencies by .1%, that's POINT 1%, Can you imagine me getting excited to the homeowner that the competitor is 3.3 COP and ours is 3.4.!!! WOW, not much for a homeowner to get excited about. But if I say that one unit is 12 and mine is 14 or 16 it sounds so much bigger.
Now, Astro posted before I had a chance to. Turtle, you must not make the mistake of thinking that temperature rise is an indication of total BTUs. You know that I'm sure. So to compare two houses TempRise doesn't prove anything at all. You have to do a performance check in order to find out the actual efficiency and BTU output of a unit. A higher efficient SEER unit will put out more BTUs more efficiently unless there is a problem with the unit.
Astro, ignore the TempRise for efficiency on your Geothermal unit, it has nothing to do with it by itself, it is only PART of the equation and numbers we use to indicate what a geothermal unit or heat pump is doing. One must have ARI numbers in order to do these calculations and then do temperature checks along with voltage and amperage readings. Heat Pumps and Geothermals makes HVAC a real science that can be proved instead of using a wet finger in the air test.
Turtle, if you don't have the formulas and have never done a proper Heat Pump performance check I can have Mark email you the necessary forms and formulas. He is VERY good on this and can tune in a unit to exactness. Let me know or contact him. When you get this formula use it on the two systems you described and you will see exactly what each unit is producing in BTU's and at what efficiency.
Rich
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<snipped long message out>

Rich, of course, I agree, delta T is only one number in the equation. The big concern with my system this winter has been absolute BTU output and the sustainability of that output. As for efficiency, I have clamp-metered the compressor amperage and air handler current a couple times to get an estimate of COP for my unit. I need to remeasure now that it's been running continuously during the cold weather, pushing out about 30k BTU. At last measure, the system was running about 2.8 COP pushing 36k BTU. Nothing to brag about...
My crack about the 5 ton conventional HP is because even in these cold air temp days, a 5 ton air source HP would be cranking out more BTU's (based on the published curves) than my less-than-optimal 4-ton geothermal system. As noted, partly tongue in cheek because the real solution is to get my installation repaired so that it's pumping from a reasonable ground temp at which point no air source system should be able to touch it.
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wrote:

I'm curious to which system / brand do you have? What model and what type of loop?
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ECR Tech, split system, direct expansion, R-22, 4-tons, 4x100' vertical loop. Combined with a Trane VS air handler. The unit is the latest model using a new Copeland Millennium scroll compressor. (I believe that's the type of compressor, it had some fancy name, but I'm not 100% sure of that.)
I have to correct myself. The above COP is NOT accurate. I was looking at my notes and the above amperage was a quick and dirty clamp meter measurement that hasn't been corrected for power factor. I'm going to put a loop on the line and scope it to determine PF using the zero crossing phase shift. For an approximation, you could adjust the 2.8 by the PF for a typical compressor. I see one reference for a 4-ton Copeland scroll compressor is 0.98, so if mine matches this, the value won't change much at all. I see PFs from .85 to .98. in the charts.
Note: for those of you who want a detailed explanation of power factor and why true power doesn't simply equal the power you measure with a clamp-meter, see:
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/AC/AC_11.html
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