Hard water and magnets

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I've heard and read about flowing water past a magnet to keep calcium in
suspension and from coating stuff. I wnnt to try this with my evaporative
cooler for starters. I haven't found a magnetic adapter to put in the water
line locally. I have a small powerful surplus magnet. What if I put it
under the float valve that controls incoming water so the water flows over
it? Anyone try anything like this?

TIA


--
"Experience is something you don't get until
just after you need it." Steven Wright








Re: Hard water and magnets
As far as I know, only iron and I think cobalt are magnetic. Calcium is not
affected by magnetism. I'd not waste my time or money.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  www.lds.org
.

I've heard and read about flowing water past a magnet to keep calcium in
suspension and from coating stuff. I wnnt to try this with my evaporative
cooler for starters. I haven't found a magnetic adapter to put in the water
line locally. I have a small powerful surplus magnet. What if I put it
under the float valve that controls incoming water so the water flows over
it? Anyone try anything like this?

TIA


--
"Experience is something you don't get until
just after you need it." Steven Wright










Re: Hard water and magnets
On Apr 9, 7:21 am, "Stormin Mormon"
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The calcium ion is affected by magnetic fields. [That ion is used in
neurons and the mitosis of cells] The molecule will precess in
combination with the earth's field *and* certain frequency of magnetic
field.

It is my undertanding that during robust sun spot activity that highly
modulates the earth's field, that patients report an increase in
hallucinations and other problems by schizophrenics. Makes for good
press, may be urban myth.

Regarding DC magnetic field keeping ions in suspension: Try it, but DO
NOT SPEND ANY MONEY to try it! Report back here your findings. And
confirmation that it's all snake oil.


Re: Hard water and magnets
Well, shazaam. I never knew that!

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
  www.lds.org
.


The calcium ion is affected by magnetic fields. [That ion is used in
neurons and the mitosis of cells] The molecule will precess in
combination with the earth's field *and* certain frequency of magnetic
field.

It is my undertanding that during robust sun spot activity that highly
modulates the earth's field, that patients report an increase in
hallucinations and other problems by schizophrenics. Makes for good
press, may be urban myth.

Regarding DC magnetic field keeping ions in suspension: Try it, but DO
NOT SPEND ANY MONEY to try it! Report back here your findings. And
confirmation that it's all snake oil.




Re: Hard water and magnets
On 4/9/2012 10:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
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I do seem to remember that the gravitational forces from the Earth's
moon have a great many effects on life on this planet down to a cellular
level. You may wonder where the term "lunatic" came from and
from what I've read, people noticed that a full moon often had
deleterious effects on those people already mentally unstable and also
affected the personalities of even those who never displayed aberrant
behavior. Darn, I know a lot of lunatics. ^_^

TDD

Re: Hard water and magnets
The Daring Dufas wrote:

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Wow!  I never knew the origin of "lunatic" but it makes perfect
sense when you hear it.  Good stuff.

--
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them
where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg


Re: Hard water and magnets

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Any teacher will tell you that kids behave a little more out of control when
the moon is full
Police, Firefighters, EMTs will also tell you that they get more business
when the moon is full

Nothing new under the su..uh moon, here.
 


Re: Hard water and magnets
Attila.Iskander wrote:

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I've heard the same thing, crazy huh?

--
I saw a human pyramid once. It was very unnecessary. -Mitch Hedberg


Re: Hard water and magnets
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I think it probably will, given a strong enough field.

But the amplitude of that motion is probably on the order of a
trillionth of an inch.

Re: Hard water and magnets
Quoted text here. Click to load it
Wow, how about less opinion and more learning?

The distance of motion is always the SAME, as I said, it is the
FREQUENCY, or speed, of the precession that changes with the strength
of the field. The precession rate for the calcium ion is around 20Hz
in the earth's 50 uT field.


Displacement? According to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_radius>
the diameter of the calcium +2 ion is around 174 picometers, which is
around 6.9 billionths of an inch. 7000 times larger than a trillionth
of an inch. And in precession the AMOUNT of motion stays constant,
only the frequency changes.

It is the 'sensitivity' to the field that causes many to point at this
phenomenon as the 'scientific' link to justify fears of ELF.from AC
mains.

Another example of the precession of an ion is the hydrogen ion in
water. As a home project, take a two liter bottle of water, wrap
several hundred turns of wire around it. Then run 10 amps through the
wire, shut off the current abruptly and monitor what is 'kicked' back
into the coil. With the presence of the DC current, all the poles of
the ions line up. When the DC current stops and the field stops, all
the magnetic dipoles of the ions rush to settle back to their random
positions. Since the poles all start out in the same orientation,
there is a pronounced voltage induced into the coil at a specific
frequency as the ions 'settle'. The precession frequency is
proportional to the earth's magnetic field.

This home project is produces a vectorless magnetometer, since the
bottle's orientation does not matter.

Again, it is the sensitivity of the hydrogen ion to a magnetic field,
that snake oil salesman use to tout their magnetic de-scalers.


Re: Hard water and magnets
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Obviously you do not understand what precession is, nor how to
calculate forces in a B field.


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Proof positive you do not understand, because this is NOT an example
of precession.
 (It is simple inductance and can be calculated by Maxwell's
equations.)

Re: Hard water and magnets
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At the very least, the experiment is poorly stated.  He
says to just measure the "kick back to the coil"?  Any
coil that is energized and then turned off will generate
a current, as you correctly point out.   No water filled
bottle required.   Now perhaps he means measure the
DIFFERENCE caused by the presence of the water bottle?
Which would raise more questions, like how
much of that difference is due to the hydrogen ions
versus any other effects, such as the magnetic
permeability of water versus air.....   And I'd be kind of
surprised if the suggested home experiment is going
to be able to capture/ quantify the difference.  Like what would
one use to measure this small energy DIFFERENCE
coming out of a  collapsing elecromagnetic field?

Doesn't sound like a home experiment to me.
And as you point out, if you just put 10 amps through
a coil of wire, when you turn it off, you're going to have
a substantial "kick back" with or without any water.

Re: Hard water and magnets
wrote:
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Do a search for
constructing "proton precession magnetometer"

and google's first hit of 50,000+
Signals from the Subatomic World:How to Build a Proton Precession ...
A proton precession magnetometer ( PPM ) is one of the most accurate
devices that you can build for measuring magnetic fields. A PPM takes
advantage of the ...
<http://www.exstrom.com/magnum/master-Z-H-4.html

Signals from the Subatomic World:How to Build a Proton Precession ...
Sensor Coil. The purpose of the sensor coil is to acquire the proton
precession signal from the sample, and to provide the amplifier with
as much of the signal as ...
<http://www.exstrom.com/magnum/master-Z-H-7.html

and Wikipedia, the best for data:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetometer>
The relationship between the frequency of the induced current and the
strength of the magnetic field is called the proton gyromagnetic
ratio, and is equal to 0.042576 Hz nT-1. The accuracy of PPM's is thus
limited by the accuracy of this constant.

The frequency of Earth's field NMR (EFNMR) for protons varies between
approximately 900 Hz near the equator to 4.2 kHz near the geomagnetic
poles. These magnetometers can be moderately sensitive if several tens
of watts are available to power the aligning process. If measurments
are taken once per second, standard deviations in the readings is in
the 0.01 nT to 0.1 nT range, and variations of about 0.1 nT can be
detected.


Note that puts the signals right in the band of your 24 bit sound
cards!, so go make one.


Re: Hard water and magnets
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Looked at your links.  And the construction of that device
involves building specific coils, pulse control circuitry, an
amplifier, etc.
Then we get into the data acquisition and control......

Comparing that to what you posted:

"As a home project, take a two liter bottle of water, wrap
several hundred turns of wire around it. Then run 10 amps
through the wire, shut off the current abruptly and monitor
what is 'kicked' back into the coil. "

If that's what it takes, then I'd say my initial reaction
that the actual experiment was poorly stated was right. Your
post left the impression that it was a simple, trivial experiment.
Apparently it can be done at home, but it takes a lot
more work and material than just wrapping some wire
around a water bottle.


Re: Hard water and magnets
wrote:
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I accept your criticism that I poorly stated - apologize.  One
develops some bad habits over the years especially from flippantly
saying something [more accurately referring to something] that is
thought to be already understood. I forget that many people have not
been exposed to the mechanism supporting the PPM, or worked with the
circuit blocks that put together make up the 'simple' construction
required to build a PPM.

Regarding bieng a home project. SIMPLE is relative. I designed
ultrasonic echocardiography instrumentation - a non-invasive
instrument that looks inside the body using sound waves. Besides the
obvious complexity of the ultrasooud generation and reception, the
system required 5 microprocessors including a particularly difficult
architecture called bit-slice architecture for converting images in
real time.  Now THAT was NOT simple.

If you are interested, you can make a PPM at home using farily
available items:
2 liter bottle filled with distilled water [a friend of mine who makes
this item using a different chamber for commercial sale, swears
alcohol is richer in hydrogen atoms - He also sells a magnetometer
that measures the earth's field to 12 digits!!! Watching that thing
operate is a treat. We stood out in an unpopulated area with the
instrument's digits blurred by changing as the reading updated. Most
significant digit was steady, next digit sometimes changed, next digit
'rattled' a bit, and so on until the LSD was a complete blur.  While
watching the display, the pattern moved slightly up into the more
significant digits. When I pointed that out to him he simply pointed
to a bus driving by 2 blocks away that was deflecting the earth's
field causing our display pattern to change !!!]
wrap with 18-20 Awg
run 10 to 20 amps through the wire, shut off current and watch the
voltage at the wire terminals.
measure the voltage AFTER shutoff using your soundboard as data
acquisition - if it's a 24 bit system, you don't need a preamp - you
will need diode clamping to protect the input..

The standard decay voltage after shut off will contain a 'ripple'
riding on the voltage.  Perform an FFT on the signal you accumulated
in your soundcard and you will clearly see a spike at some frequency
near 2kHz, if you're in the US.  It will also show you 60, 120, 180,
240, etc from the AC mains.

The pulse circuit does not need to operate every second, you can make
it a simple one shot deal and still watch.  Don't use a mechanical
switch, they don't shut off abruptly, taking several milliseconds, up
to 20 milliseconds and often have contact bounce - making and breaking
repeatedly as you shut off current. You will need a solid state switch
to turn off the current. Turning on can be as sloppy as you want, but
turning off has to be abrupt, and be a single event.

So yes, a little bit of work, but it is possible to make one.



Re: Hard water and magnets
Quoted text here. Click to load it
Buckminster Fuller explained to me HOW a gyroscope works [incredibly
lucid explanation] and therefore WHY [and which direction] a gyroscope
precesses in a gravitational field.

Why calculate forces in a magnetic field?
What is precession?

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uh, what? sounds like EE106. see reply to trader4@optonline.net at end
of thread

Re: Hard water and magnets
Quoted text here. Click to load it
Can I sell you a bridge between Manhattan and Brooklyn????  Or, maybe
some aluminum foil to line your underwear or your hat against an
atomic or hydrogen bomb??

Re: Hard water and magnets

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_water_treatment

  Magnetic water treatment (also  known as anti-scale magnetic treatment
  or  AMT) is  a marketed,  but scientifically  refuted pseudoscientific
  method  of reducing  the  effects of  hard  water, as  a non  chemical
  alternative to water softening

But if you don't trust scientists, by all means, go for the $500 model:

http://www.dripworks.com/category/magnets

--
Dan Espen

Re: Hard water and magnets
On 4/9/2012 11:07 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
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and put a unit in your car to increase your mileage.

I've been waiting for government agencies to come after these frauds but
its not happening.

Re: Hard water and magnets

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Wow, I HATE to make this a politics thread, but you are making an
oblique reference to the CFPB (Consumer Fraud Protection Bureau)
that the Dems and Repubs have been fighting about for years now.

You can guess which side each party is on.

Obviously  there are plenty of people around dumb enough to go
for the magnet scams.  Should the "government" protect them?
I'm not sure.

--
Dan Espen

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