Hard water and magnets

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I've heard and read about flowing water past a magnet to keep calcium in suspension and from coating stuff. I wnnt to try this with my evaporative cooler for starters. I haven't found a magnetic adapter to put in the water line locally. I have a small powerful surplus magnet. What if I put it under the float valve that controls incoming water so the water flows over it? Anyone try anything like this?
TIA
--
"Experience is something you don't get until
just after you need it." Steven Wright
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As far as I know, only iron and I think cobalt are magnetic. Calcium is not affected by magnetism. I'd not waste my time or money.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
I've heard and read about flowing water past a magnet to keep calcium in suspension and from coating stuff. I wnnt to try this with my evaporative cooler for starters. I haven't found a magnetic adapter to put in the water line locally. I have a small powerful surplus magnet. What if I put it under the float valve that controls incoming water so the water flows over it? Anyone try anything like this?
TIA
--
"Experience is something you don't get until
just after you need it." Steven Wright
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On Apr 9, 7:21 am, "Stormin Mormon"

The calcium ion is affected by magnetic fields. [That ion is used in neurons and the mitosis of cells] The molecule will precess in combination with the earth's field *and* certain frequency of magnetic field.
It is my undertanding that during robust sun spot activity that highly modulates the earth's field, that patients report an increase in hallucinations and other problems by schizophrenics. Makes for good press, may be urban myth.
Regarding DC magnetic field keeping ions in suspension: Try it, but DO NOT SPEND ANY MONEY to try it! Report back here your findings. And confirmation that it's all snake oil.
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Well, shazaam. I never knew that!
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
The calcium ion is affected by magnetic fields. [That ion is used in neurons and the mitosis of cells] The molecule will precess in combination with the earth's field *and* certain frequency of magnetic field.
It is my undertanding that during robust sun spot activity that highly modulates the earth's field, that patients report an increase in hallucinations and other problems by schizophrenics. Makes for good press, may be urban myth.
Regarding DC magnetic field keeping ions in suspension: Try it, but DO NOT SPEND ANY MONEY to try it! Report back here your findings. And confirmation that it's all snake oil.
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On 4/9/2012 10:21 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I do seem to remember that the gravitational forces from the Earth's moon have a great many effects on life on this planet down to a cellular level. You may wonder where the term "lunatic" came from and from what I've read, people noticed that a full moon often had deleterious effects on those people already mentally unstable and also affected the personalities of even those who never displayed aberrant behavior. Darn, I know a lot of lunatics. ^_^
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

Wow! I never knew the origin of "lunatic" but it makes perfect sense when you hear it. Good stuff.
--
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where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Any teacher will tell you that kids behave a little more out of control when the moon is full Police, Firefighters, EMTs will also tell you that they get more business when the moon is full
Nothing new under the su..uh moon, here.
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Attila.Iskander wrote:

I've heard the same thing, crazy huh?
--
I saw a human pyramid once. It was very unnecessary. -Mitch Hedberg


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I think it probably will, given a strong enough field.
But the amplitude of that motion is probably on the order of a trillionth of an inch.
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Wow, how about less opinion and more learning?
The distance of motion is always the SAME, as I said, it is the FREQUENCY, or speed, of the precession that changes with the strength of the field. The precession rate for the calcium ion is around 20Hz in the earth's 50 uT field.
Displacement? According to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_radius> the diameter of the calcium +2 ion is around 174 picometers, which is around 6.9 billionths of an inch. 7000 times larger than a trillionth of an inch. And in precession the AMOUNT of motion stays constant, only the frequency changes.
It is the 'sensitivity' to the field that causes many to point at this phenomenon as the 'scientific' link to justify fears of ELF.from AC mains.
Another example of the precession of an ion is the hydrogen ion in water. As a home project, take a two liter bottle of water, wrap several hundred turns of wire around it. Then run 10 amps through the wire, shut off the current abruptly and monitor what is 'kicked' back into the coil. With the presence of the DC current, all the poles of the ions line up. When the DC current stops and the field stops, all the magnetic dipoles of the ions rush to settle back to their random positions. Since the poles all start out in the same orientation, there is a pronounced voltage induced into the coil at a specific frequency as the ions 'settle'. The precession frequency is proportional to the earth's magnetic field.
This home project is produces a vectorless magnetometer, since the bottle's orientation does not matter.
Again, it is the sensitivity of the hydrogen ion to a magnetic field, that snake oil salesman use to tout their magnetic de-scalers.
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Obviously you do not understand what precession is, nor how to calculate forces in a B field.

Proof positive you do not understand, because this is NOT an example of precession. (It is simple inductance and can be calculated by Maxwell's equations.)
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At the very least, the experiment is poorly stated. He says to just measure the "kick back to the coil"? Any coil that is energized and then turned off will generate a current, as you correctly point out. No water filled bottle required. Now perhaps he means measure the DIFFERENCE caused by the presence of the water bottle? Which would raise more questions, like how much of that difference is due to the hydrogen ions versus any other effects, such as the magnetic permeability of water versus air..... And I'd be kind of surprised if the suggested home experiment is going to be able to capture/ quantify the difference. Like what would one use to measure this small energy DIFFERENCE coming out of a collapsing elecromagnetic field?
Doesn't sound like a home experiment to me. And as you point out, if you just put 10 amps through a coil of wire, when you turn it off, you're going to have a substantial "kick back" with or without any water.
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wrote:

Do a search for constructing "proton precession magnetometer"
and google's first hit of 50,000+ Signals from the Subatomic World:How to Build a Proton Precession ... A proton precession magnetometer ( PPM ) is one of the most accurate devices that you can build for measuring magnetic fields. A PPM takes advantage of the ... <http://www.exstrom.com/magnum/master-Z-H-4.html
Signals from the Subatomic World:How to Build a Proton Precession ... Sensor Coil. The purpose of the sensor coil is to acquire the proton precession signal from the sample, and to provide the amplifier with as much of the signal as ... <http://www.exstrom.com/magnum/master-Z-H-7.html
and Wikipedia, the best for data: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetometer> The relationship between the frequency of the induced current and the strength of the magnetic field is called the proton gyromagnetic ratio, and is equal to 0.042576 Hz nT-1. The accuracy of PPM's is thus limited by the accuracy of this constant.
The frequency of Earth's field NMR (EFNMR) for protons varies between approximately 900 Hz near the equator to 4.2 kHz near the geomagnetic poles. These magnetometers can be moderately sensitive if several tens of watts are available to power the aligning process. If measurments are taken once per second, standard deviations in the readings is in the 0.01 nT to 0.1 nT range, and variations of about 0.1 nT can be detected.
Note that puts the signals right in the band of your 24 bit sound cards!, so go make one.
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Looked at your links. And the construction of that device involves building specific coils, pulse control circuitry, an amplifier, etc. Then we get into the data acquisition and control......
Comparing that to what you posted:
"As a home project, take a two liter bottle of water, wrap several hundred turns of wire around it. Then run 10 amps through the wire, shut off the current abruptly and monitor what is 'kicked' back into the coil. "
If that's what it takes, then I'd say my initial reaction that the actual experiment was poorly stated was right. Your post left the impression that it was a simple, trivial experiment. Apparently it can be done at home, but it takes a lot more work and material than just wrapping some wire around a water bottle.
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wrote:

I accept your criticism that I poorly stated - apologize. One develops some bad habits over the years especially from flippantly saying something [more accurately referring to something] that is thought to be already understood. I forget that many people have not been exposed to the mechanism supporting the PPM, or worked with the circuit blocks that put together make up the 'simple' construction required to build a PPM.
Regarding bieng a home project. SIMPLE is relative. I designed ultrasonic echocardiography instrumentation - a non-invasive instrument that looks inside the body using sound waves. Besides the obvious complexity of the ultrasooud generation and reception, the system required 5 microprocessors including a particularly difficult architecture called bit-slice architecture for converting images in real time. Now THAT was NOT simple.
If you are interested, you can make a PPM at home using farily available items: 2 liter bottle filled with distilled water [a friend of mine who makes this item using a different chamber for commercial sale, swears alcohol is richer in hydrogen atoms - He also sells a magnetometer that measures the earth's field to 12 digits!!! Watching that thing operate is a treat. We stood out in an unpopulated area with the instrument's digits blurred by changing as the reading updated. Most significant digit was steady, next digit sometimes changed, next digit 'rattled' a bit, and so on until the LSD was a complete blur. While watching the display, the pattern moved slightly up into the more significant digits. When I pointed that out to him he simply pointed to a bus driving by 2 blocks away that was deflecting the earth's field causing our display pattern to change !!!] wrap with 18-20 Awg run 10 to 20 amps through the wire, shut off current and watch the voltage at the wire terminals. measure the voltage AFTER shutoff using your soundboard as data acquisition - if it's a 24 bit system, you don't need a preamp - you will need diode clamping to protect the input..
The standard decay voltage after shut off will contain a 'ripple' riding on the voltage. Perform an FFT on the signal you accumulated in your soundcard and you will clearly see a spike at some frequency near 2kHz, if you're in the US. It will also show you 60, 120, 180, 240, etc from the AC mains.
The pulse circuit does not need to operate every second, you can make it a simple one shot deal and still watch. Don't use a mechanical switch, they don't shut off abruptly, taking several milliseconds, up to 20 milliseconds and often have contact bounce - making and breaking repeatedly as you shut off current. You will need a solid state switch to turn off the current. Turning on can be as sloppy as you want, but turning off has to be abrupt, and be a single event.
So yes, a little bit of work, but it is possible to make one.
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Buckminster Fuller explained to me HOW a gyroscope works [incredibly lucid explanation] and therefore WHY [and which direction] a gyroscope precesses in a gravitational field.
Why calculate forces in a magnetic field? What is precession?

uh, what? sounds like EE106. see reply to snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net at end of thread
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Can I sell you a bridge between Manhattan and Brooklyn???? Or, maybe some aluminum foil to line your underwear or your hat against an atomic or hydrogen bomb??
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_water_treatment
Magnetic water treatment (also known as anti-scale magnetic treatment or AMT) is a marketed, but scientifically refuted pseudoscientific method of reducing the effects of hard water, as a non chemical alternative to water softening
But if you don't trust scientists, by all means, go for the $500 model:
http://www.dripworks.com/category/magnets
--
Dan Espen

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On 4/9/2012 11:07 AM, Dan Espen wrote:

I've been waiting for government agencies to come after these frauds but its not happening.
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Wow, I HATE to make this a politics thread, but you are making an oblique reference to the CFPB (Consumer Fraud Protection Bureau) that the Dems and Repubs have been fighting about for years now.
You can guess which side each party is on.
Obviously there are plenty of people around dumb enough to go for the magnet scams. Should the "government" protect them? I'm not sure.
--
Dan Espen

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