Hand Pump on Deep Well

[Pavel314]

We have a submersible pump in a 125' well to provide water to the house. The water just stopped last night while my wife was preparing dinner. Since the pump is only five years old, I suspected the pressure-sensing-relay-switching thing. After checking which lines in the gizmo had power, I was even more convinced. A few taps with the ball peen hammer didn't fix it so we got the plumber out this morning. He confirmed my suspicions and $497 later we had water again.

In an emergency we can bring pails of water from the pump house down by the barn but that's a hundred yards down the lane. My wife suggested putting an old-fashioned hand pump on the house well head in the back yard, which would be much closer. That would be decorative and functional, a clever idea I thought.

Is that possible? I thought of dropping a 125' hose down the well shaft and attaching it to a hand pump up top but don't hand pumps only work to a depth of 15' or so? Something to do with air pressure I believe. Even if it worked at that depth, we'd have to remove the hand pump and hose if the submersible pump ever needed repair or replacement, but that only happens about every 15 or 20 years.

Opinions appreciated.

Paul

[Doug Miller]

No.

The maximum depth from which water can be raised by any pump that relies on suction is approximately 34 feet. That's because suction pumps raise water in a tube by creating a partial vacuum above the water; atmospheric pressure forces the water up the tube. Atmospheric pressure will support a water column no higher than 10.34 meters, or about 34 feet.

[Pico Rico]

How about dropping a small 12 volt pump down the well - why use muscle power when you could connect a battery?

[Doug Miller]

He's going to have to put something down the well, anyway -- it's completely impossible to pull water from that depth with a hand pump.

[Pavel314]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I was pretty sure that a hand pump had a limited range. The 12-volt pump is a clever idea.

Paul

[bob haller]

I have a friend who had a 150 foot deep well and put a hand pump on it, he had city water this was a back up ........

very hard work pumpingthe water, he finally put a electric motor with inverter on it.

you would sweat more water pumping it than what you would get from the well:(

[bud--]

Note that the pump head pressure is around 60 psi just to get the water out of the well. It would probably have to be positive displacement (piston) and very low flow rates. Also consider voltage drop on the wires to the pump.

How do you hand pump a 150 ft well. Doug explained the physics. Or was the pump 120 or more feet down the well with an operating rod to the surface?

[LSMFT]

Well how do those oil well pumps pump up the oil? It's just a hand pump with a big motor and cam wheel.

[Pico Rico]

it depends what kind of pump you use.

[trader4]

Of course the problem then becomes how practical it is as a temporary emergency solution. You can't have the submersible and those deep well hand pumps in the typical well at the same time. So you'd have to pull the failed sumbersible first. At that point, it would seem to me a better solution would be to have a spare pump on hand.

Or just use bottled water until the pump can be replaced.

The real tragedy here is the OP apparenlty figured out it was the pressure switch and then still wound up calling a well company and paying $450. With just a little more investigating and testing he could have figured it out for sure and replaced it for $30. Sounds about $300 too high.

[Pico Rico]

why not?

yes, I thought that same thing.

[Doug Miller]

Not by suction, if it's coming from more than 10.34 meters below the surface.

[Pavel314]

I entirely agree, but I have occasional tragedies of this nature, mostly due to having the day job. Sometimes you just can't take off because of deadlines and meetings and other obligations so you pay the fee to have someone else do it.

Occasionally, I'll take off to fix something but sometimes I get caught in the cascading repair syndrome. You may have done this too. You're sure that Part A is causing the problem so you run up to the parts store and get a new Part A. After installation, the thing still doesn't work so you go back and get Part B. After installation, it still doesn't work but it's lunchtime. After lunch, you go back to buy Part C, which has to work because it's the only thing you haven't replaced yet. You finish as the Sun sets and push the start button; still no go. So you call the repairman and he comes out the next morning and fixes it for $497. Plus the wasted day and $200 in Parts A, B and C.

Paul

[dpb]

On 4/13/2011 10:47 AM, LSMFT wrote: ...

No, it isn't...

The rocking beam or pumpjack pumps are sucker rods that lift the oil. Very much like the sucker rods of an old windmill except larger scale.

Didn't find a quick illustration of workings of oil pumpjack; principle is same as shown in this link for water.

Newer wells may use hydraulic lift or even have jet pumps installed.

[dpb]

On 4/13/2011 12:44 PM, Doug Miller wrote: ...

Excepting for the density difference, of course... :)

Altho afaik, no oil wells use suction pumps even if were within the range of lift which would be theoretically possible.

[Harry K]

I think that there _are_ handpumps working a sucker rod. I don't know how much force would be required to lift water that far though.

Harry K

[Harry K]

Yep, even paying plumber prices unless he had a long drive that fee was out of line. Should have taken way less that 30 minutes to replace the pressure switch. New pressure switches should be a standard part of the stuff in his truck. Disconnect three wires, unscrew old, screw on new, reconnect thee wires.

On personal stupidity. Last fall I had one replace the flush mechanism on the toilet (Toto so I was unfamiliar with the system) Turned out It was the usual simple replacement though. Then to compound the problem I asked him to look at a frostfree standpipe that would produce flow. Decided it needed replacement. He had his shovel on his shoulder headed for it when I came to my senses and realized I was about to pay plumber prices for sweat labor and stopped him. Replaced it myself the next day at an hours work.

Harry K

[Harry K]

Errm..theoretical at sea level. Practical is 26ft at sea level due to system losses and then the decrease with increased elevation.

Harry K

[Doug Miller]

Yeah, forgot about that. Crude oil's pretty dense, though. Less dense than water, but not by much IIRC. Say 12 meters or so.

[trader4]

I assumed the hand pump was large enough around that it would not fit in the typical 4" casing with a submesible at the same time. Upon closer inspection, it looks like it will, theoretically, at least, with the hand pump winding up above the sub. I'd still be a bit nervous about lowering it down into a well that uses the typical poly pipe, because I would be concerned about the two pipes/pumps winding up tangled and stuck somehow. Also, newer wells use a pitless adapter, so if the hand pump goes in from the top, will it fit past the pitless adaptor?

But the main point is, why bother? At the end of spending a lot of money and time, you still have a hand pump. I'd just buy 20 gallons of water to get me through getting the pump replaced.