Grounding wire from panel to gas pipe???

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When we had our electric service upgraded, the electrician (as expected) ran a ground wire from the cold water main inlet to the ground on the panel.
I read somewhere that one should also run a similar grounding wire to the natural gas pipe inlet but the electrician didn't do that. - Is it required by code? - Is it recommended? - Should one use the same gauge wire as for the water pipe? - Any special considerations? - Can I daisy chain it from the water pipe or do I need to run a separate ground back to the panel?
Thanks
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Take a look at your gas pipe near the meter. I bet there is a tag or sticker that states the following. "Under cathodic protection, do not ground" blueman wrote:

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snipped-for-privacy@localnet.com writes:

Can you explain what this means and why it implies that it shouldn't be grounded?
Also, where would I find this tag?
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Both pipes should be at the same electric potential (ground) since they are both are buried. The grounding is done to help ensure the electrical panel has a true ground. In some cases the panel ground is wired to a long steel pole driven into the earth. Just different ways to do the same thing. Brad
blueman wrote:

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Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
The water piping is bonded to the electrical ground in order to insure that the _water_piping_ has a true electrical ground -- IOW, to prevent the water piping from becoming live in the event of an electrical fault somewhere.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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The first poster had it right. The water piping is already at ground because it is in direct contact with the ground. Unless of course you have your water brought to you on pipes suspended in the air. Or perhaps you have it flown in?
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water pipe today is frequently plastic and as such is no ground........
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water pipe today is frequently plastic and as such is no ground........
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No, he didn't. The electrical system has its own, *separate* grounding electrode. Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system.
BTW... have you ever heard of plastic water piping?
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Metal water piping burried in the ground cannot become live. It is as well grounded as possible. If you connect the house's ground to it then it is in order to keep the house's ground from being live compared to the water pipe.

As a water source? Never. What has that to do with anything discussed? Nobody is going gto use ploastic for grounding.
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This is *not* correct in any respect.
There is no guarantee that the electrical system's grounding electrode, and the metal water piping, are at the same potential unless they are bonded together -- despite both of them being buried in the ground. Electrical resistance in the earth is not constant, and in fact can vary widely even over short distances.
I repeat: the *sole* reason for bonding metal water piping to the electrical system's grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the water piping is at the same potential as the electrical system's ground, so that the water pipes cannot become live in the event of an electrical fault.
Google is your friend, and educating yourself on this topic should be easy.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) writes:

So, my question stands: For the same reason that you ground the water pipe so that it is not energized, do you need to do the same thing to the gas pipe source?
Again I am interested both in what CODE says and what is the smart recommendation even if not required by code.
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Doug Miller wrote:

The NEC has for a very long time required that water service pipes be used as a grounding electrode. The current code REQUIRES that water service pipe with metal pipe underground length of 10 ft or more be included as a grounding electrode. Because this pipe may in the future be replaced with plastic pipe, a supplemental electrode is required - usually ground rod(s). For new construction use a Ufer ground/concrete encased electrode. These electrodes are connected together to make a grounding electrode system. The earthing resistance of a metal municipal water system is lower than anything you can provide in a house.
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Note the word "a". Not "the".

And it flatly prohibits using it as the *only* grounding electrode.

You have things backwards. The ground rod is the *primary* grounding electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.
You're also wrong about the reason.
"Bonding of piping systems... the basic concept is to ground any metal pipes that would present a hazard if energized by an electrical circuit." [National Electrical Code Handbook, Section 250-80]
I don't know how to put it any simpler than that.
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Doug Miller wrote:

So what? Metal water service pipes (10 ft or longer) are REQUIRED by 250.50 to be a part of the grounding electrode system. This basic requirement has been in the code for a very long time. Ground rods are not required to be installed.

So what? See reason.

You have things backwards. With a water pipe a "supplemental" electrode is required - 250.53-D-2. A "supplemental" ground rod is a strange name for the "primary" grounding electrode.
Grounding rods are 'good' if their resistance to earth is 25 ohms or less (or use 2 rods and it doesn't matter). Municipal water pipe earth resistance is typically under 3 ohms.
Grounding electrode conductors to a water pipe must be up to 3/0 copper for large services. For a ground rod they can be #6 Cu for any service. For a Ufer ground #4 Cu.
A ground rod is not required, only another electrode. A much better choice for new construction is a Ufer ground/concrete-encased electrode. Presumably the NEC language has been changed to require Ufer grounds for new construction (if there is a foundation or footing). [Are AHJs requiring Ufer?] Ufer earth resistances are likely under 5 ohms.

From the National Electrical Code Handbook - 1996 publushed by the NFPA under 250.81(a) [in 1999 this morphed into 2005-250.52-A-1] The requirement to supplement the metal water pipe is based on the practice of using plastic pipe for replacement when the original metal water pipe fails. This leaves the system without a grounding electrode unless a supplementary electrode is provided.
(Note that the ground rod is a "supplementary" electrode.)

If the water service pipe is plastic and there is interior metal water pipe it is required to be bonded by 250.80. If the water service pipe is metal (10 ft...) it is REQUIRED by 250.50 to be a part of the grounding electrode system and 250.80 is irrelevant.

I don't know how to put it any simpler than that.
bud--
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"A part", yes -- but it is not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode.

Technically true, but misleading. You may use a ground rod, a ground plate, a buried wire ring, or the metal framing of the building, as the *only* grounding electrode. But not a water pipe.

The Code permits using a ground rod, alone, as the grounding electrode. It prohibits using a water pipe, alone, as the grounding electrode. Quibbling over which is "primary" and which is "supplemental" doesn't change those facts.

Irrelevant. The Code does not permit a water pipe to be the only grounding electrode.
Again:

I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble grasping this.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Assume underground metal water service pipe (10ft...) and a ground rod.
Your original statement was:
> Metal water piping is bonded to the electrical system grounding > electrodes to ensure that the metal water piping cannot become live, > *not* to provide a ground for the electrical system
The underground water service pipe is REQUIRED by the 250.50 to be included as a grounding electrode. It has been thus fire was invented. Bonding requirements under 250.104-A (not 250.80) have been already met under the more stringent 250.50. The code clearly requires the water service pipe to be a grounding electrode. The water pipe clearly provides A GROUND FOR THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM.
If 250.104 was removed, the connection would still have to be made. If the water service pipe was plastic 250.104 would prevail.
Both Brad and AZNomad said the water pipe was a grounding electode. So far no one agrees with you.
You said: > The ground rod is the *primary* grounding > electrode, and the water piping is the supplemental electrode.
250.53-D-2. requires a "supplemental" electrode - your ground rod. The water pipe is clearly superior based on the size of grounding electrode conductor required for each electrode and by typical earth resistances.
You said: > You're also wrong about the reason The NFPA Handbook said the rod was there because the water pipe might be replaced in the future with plastic with the rod as a "supplementary" fall-back.
I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble grasping this.
bud--
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Yep. And that's correct.
The water pipe -- by itself -- is not permitted by Code to be used to ground the electrical system, and hasn't been for many years.
It's bonded to the *other* grounding electrode(s) to ensure that the water piping is always at zero potential with respect to the electrical ground.
Not sure why you're having such a hard time grasping that concept...
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

2005 NEC 250.50 "All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system."
250.52(A)(1) "Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe indirect contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more...."
100(1) [definitions] "Grounding Electrode. A device that establishes an electrical connection to the earth."
If you are having trouble intrepreting: All grounding electrodes including Metal Underground Water Pipe shall be bonded together to to form the grounding electrode system that establishes an electrical connection to the earth.
What do you think it means?
Can you read?
bud--
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You're the one who has trouble reading, not me. I never said that metal water pipes shouldn't be part of the grounding electrode system -- I said that metal water pipes are not permitted to be the *only* grounding electrode, and that's a fact.
It's also a fact that the reason for bonding metal water pipes to the other grounding electrode(s) is to ensure that the plumbing cannot ever become live, no matter what might go wrong with the electrical system.
Sorry you're having such a hard time understanding.
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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