Volts: With a 35 foot run from my panel to the acceptable spot on your water pipe, what size wire should I run (or would _you_ run on your house if you had that situation ?)
I always heard that if the run was much longer than 5 feet that you would have problems dissipating a lightning type surge. I can get a short run like that to a grounding rod (and then another
5 to a second rod from the first). But, there's no way I'm going to get that sort of run to the water pipe. Also, eventually I plan to put in a whole house lightning/surge protector, I'd like to be ready for that - and fix the current issue right now.
OK, I missed the point. You're saying "get it into the moist ground that is hit by the rain". I thought you were saying "get it away from the drip line 'cause it will get wet.".
I may have some issues with the depth. You hit hardpan in my yard at
6 to 8 feet deep. I don't think a copper rod will got through it, no matter what. The stuff is like concrete, I couldn't get through it with a steel truck bar.
How deep does the ring have to be ? Does it really need to be a circle ? Or could I run 20 feet along side the house in a ditch ?
Good point. Since the water heater is right next to the HVAC, I'll run a wire to the ductwork too. Can't hurt - if it does, something is wrong.
OK.
OK.
OK, sounds good. I may have to replace the meter box to do that as it is barely big enough for the meter itself. It's a bit rusty and I was thinking of doing it anyway, so maybe I'll wrap it all together into one project for my electrician.
Well, the truth is I didn't discover that I need a new grounding rod, I discovered, upon tracing the GEC, that the conductor was severed due to corrosion. Right now the only ground I have is #4 going from the ground bar (in the modern service panel) to the cold water pipe inside the house. I'm not doing anything without the electrician, and nothing without shutting down the main disconnect first.
Then, that's what I'll do. (or hire someone to do)
Right, understanding that a the point of the first main disconnect box the "netural" busbar is the only busbar there is, and it is at this same bar that the ground conductors originate as well.
Okay, I still need to make that call.
To restate, the water heater, incoming gas line, and incoming power line (and the service panels) are all in one corner of the basement so those are short and easy access. However, the water line actually enters the home about 30 feet away, and there's one right angle turn to get there, although I could probably make the bend much more gradual. Because the water meter is located less than three feet from the point at which the the water pipe enters the home, if I install ground clamps on both sides of the water meter, I'm assuming I won't need to worry about another clamp "within 5 feet of where the water pipe enters the house". Knowing it's a 4 foot run to the water heater and another 30 foot run to the water meter, do you still recommend using an UNBROKEN wire?
"it" meaning the water meter.. in case it ever needs replacing.. got it.
Okay, this sounds like a good way to do it. Because using a conductor to join the water pipe and the grounding rods OUTDOORS would be very difficult, is grounding the water pipe from the inside (as you describe) really an adequate substitute? Also, because the ground rods will be located at one part of front yard while the water pipes enter the home about 20 yards away, will this be a problem having "two separate ground" locations, so to speak?
I'm just going to have to get some images up for you to see. I've tried to find online diagrams or descriptions of how the panelboard should looked properly wired, but I can't find any. Let me try one more time to describe it. Incoming power to my house has three stranded conductors contained in one cable. The two hot conductors are insulated and the third is bare metal. These conductors are several times the size of a 4 gague wire, including the bare one. Inside the main disconnect box, the two hot conductors go to the solitary 100A Breaker. The bare metal conductor goes to what I guess we have been calling the neutral "busbar". This little busbar is grounded to the box itself, and from this busbar a relatively smaller #4 wire originates and, acting as GEC, goes out to earth ground. A second #4 wire also originates from this bus bar and goes out to the grounding bus bar of the panelboard (which I have been calling the modern service panel). Leaving from the main disconnect box is a cable exactly like the one that comes into the main disconnect box. The two hots go to the 100A breaker IN the panelbox. The neutral goes to neutral bus bar of the panelboard. There is no green screw that I can see, but it seems clear that a metal bar grounds one bus to the box itself.
Although the electrician already said it was okay, I'll have him look at it again to be certain. I really am going to let him mess with it rather than doing it myself.
I may not understand the term, but there really isn't any kind of cable ground block outside the house. Cable runs down the house to a splitter, then enters the house in two places. I guess I could install some kind of "antenna discharge unit" and run a ground from there. But you're saying I should run the #10 outside the house all the way to one of the grounding rods? It's literally on the opposite side of the house from where the rods will be. It would be a very long horizontal run at best IF I dug under my sidewalk and/or porch. If I don't go under the concrete, then I'd have to go along side the house and over the front door and past a few windows. My wife would kill me. Would it be unsafe to run the #10 ground through the INSIDE of the house? (That's the way it is now)
Ok, will do.
Tell me, what DO you get out of helping out guys like me? Is is just good samaritanism? I'm always amazed at how generous some people are with their knowledge and time. I really do appreciate it.
I will Volts500. Thanks for your genuine concern.
And I could use the Square D instead of the TWO rods, and you think that would be better? If so, that's what I'll do.
I uploaded two images. The top image show the first box power comes into, or the service disconnect. The bottom picture is the modern service panel which branches off from the service disconnect.
Service Disconnect: Does it look like this busbar will be able to support 4 outgoing conductors?
#4 ground going to grounding rod(s)
#4 ground going to water pipe
Big gague mesh going to service panel neutral bus bar
#4 ground going to service panel ground bus bar
If I can't put more than one conductor on each bolt, then I'm guessing I'll have to upgrade. Will I need to change the whole box or can I just upgrade the bar?
Modern Service Panel: Some connections have actually be corrected since this picture was taken, but please comment as-is and I'll know what to change. You'll notice that it's upside down. This is how it was installed. The #4 ground coming from the service disconnect enters the panel and attaches to the LEFT bus bar. It attaches to the bus bar in the same as you would install a wire for a new circuit. Is it correct to assume this wire should have been installed to the heavier bolt to the lower left of the bar?
Please identify at which point the ground bus grounds to the box.
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I've got a new electrician coming over in a day or two. Hopefully, this will be my last post.... thanks for your patience.
If you roll out the new #4 wire on the basement floor from the main disconnect to the water meter, you can slide the wire through the lugs on the two ground clamps for the water heater (clamps not connected to pipes yet). Then connect the #4 to the service disconnect neutral busbar (first box), staple the #4 on its way to the water heater, attach the clamps on the hot and cold water pipes and tighten the lugs....then staple the #4 to the bottom of the floor joists on its way to the water meter. When you get to the water meter, slide on the ground clamps as you did for the water heater. Finito.
Volts500 wrote:
Mark Wils> Okay, this sounds like a good way to do it. Because using a conductor to
Substitute for what? I seriously doubt that you will find an electrician who won't run the wire on the inside of the basement from the main disconnect to the water meter. The #4 bare wire run to the ground rods will be totally a separate run.......they will be bonded together with the water ground _at_ the neutral busbar in the main service disconnect (first box). Does that answer your question?
Mark Wils> Also, because the ground rods will be located at one
No, they will be bonded together as mentioned above, and permitted by code. Actually, it's the prefered method since the water ground is so far away.
Mark Wils> I'm just going to have to get some images up for you to see.
I checked them out, thanks, pictures help a _lot_.
OK, that part is wrong, IMO. The cable going from the main disconnect (first box) to the "modern panelboard" should have been a 4 wire cable with two hots, one insulated neutral and one bare equipment grounding conductor. The neutral in the "modern panelboard" must be isolated from ground.........once the neutral is grounded at the main disconnect (first box) it should never be grounded again.
Mark Wils> Leaving from the main disconnect box is a cable exactly
You should have two buses in the "modern panelboard". One bus, the neutral, should be _isolated_ from ground (and have only white circuit wires connected to it). The other bus in the "modern panelboard" is the equipment grounding bus. It should be connected to the panelboard metal enclosure and have all of the bare and green circuit wires connected to it.
Mark Wils> Although the electrician already said it was okay, I'll have him look at it
This is kinda turning into a mess (that's OK, I kinda figured that it would from the time that you first posted a while back.) Before the electrician gets started ask him how much a new service will cost. IMO, the hourly rate that he is going to charge to fix that mess and the grounding just may come close to the price of a new service. At least tell him that you want a permit pulled and an inspection done for the work that he is going to do so he'll know that he can't take any shortcuts.......and he'll have to fix anything that he knows is wrong. Again, it may be cheaper just to tear it all out and start over.......would only take 4 to 6 hrs. to totally rebuild and properly ground that service (I looked at your pictures). Just keep in mind that rebuilding a service is most likely his bread and butter work......he'll probably have a fixed price that will not reflect an hourly rate. Something to think about anyway.
Volts500 wrote:
Mark Wils> I may not understand the term, but there really isn't any kind of cable
The way that I would do it (since it such a long distance) is to drive a ground rod outside where the cable enters the house......connect a #10 from the cable ground block (look for a screw or a lug on it) to the ground rod........then run a #6 (from the ground rod) through the inside of the house and split-bolt it to anywhere on the GEC.....or land it on the main disconnect (first box) neutral busbar. Since you aren't using the cable at this time, if you can get the ground rod in and the #6 to the GEC, if/when the cable gets hooked up, the cable people will be able to do the rest.
Volts500 wrote:
Mark Wils> Ok, will do.
Volts500 wrote:
Mark Wils> Tell me, what DO you get out of helping out guys like me? Is is just good
Something to do I guess. It's my way of relaxing after work too. Plus, while I have my certification and have done my bit as a residential wireman, I've always been a large commercial and industrial electrician. Helping people in this NG helps me stay up with current residential wiring codes, methods, get homeowner feedback, etc., for those times when people ask me to do some residential wiring for them (so much for samaritanism :-). Also, I get a lot of info from other people on unrelated topics in this NG, so it's my way of returning the favor. Of course, a word of thanks or appreciation goes a long way too, and for that, I thank _you_. Also, in your case, you've been jerked around by so many so called "electricians" that I felt you deserved some extra effort.
Volts500 wrote:
Mark Wils> I will Volts500. Thanks for your genuine concern.
Volts500 wrote:
Mark Wils> And I could use the Square D instead of the TWO rods, and you think that
The lightning arrestor is_not_ a replacement for the two ground rods. Since your water ground is so far from the electric service, the two ground rods, IMO, are a_must._ A lightning arrestor is basically useless without a good grounding system.
Volts500 wrote:
If you read that book, you should have no trouble understanding the principles and doing the work yourself.......but still get it inspected, please. The whole job, if you do DIY and pay for a permit and inspection (and including the price of the book) should be about $200. Just remember that I've overkilled this deal a bit in an attempt to avoid confusion and a lot of what ifs and why for's. If you are having trouble driving the ground rods, rent a rotory hammer that has a chuck that is big enough to slip over the ground rod and have at it.
Mark Wils> I'll check it out. I can't thank you enough.
You're welcome. I hope this hasn't become too confusing.
Sorry, living on an overgrown sandbar, sometimes I forget how hard it is to drive ground rods in some other parts of the country. The NEC permits a ground rod to be driven at a 45 degree angle (no less), if that helps.
2 feet deep, doesn't need to be a circle, but make it as long as you can past the required 20 feet.....use a #2 copper.......keep the trench beyond the roof drip line, where the soil will stay wet(er).
Thanks. One of those options will do it for me. I was shocked the first time I ran into hardpan. I thought someone had poured a giant concrete layer under my yard. I'm told it can be 2 to 15 feet thick - although I've never gotten more that two inches into it so I can't really say.
One last question: Why is the wire that feeds the ground rod/ring have to be bare ? Are they afraid that a lightning surge will melt the insulation and reduce the conduction when it gets around the strands ?
Looks ugly. You may want to look for a normal 5 to 8 hole panel grounding bus bar and screw it to that disconnect panel. They can usually accomodate wires up to #4, and some will go even larger. They require a #10 threaded hole in your chassis. If you don't have that, you can get double lugs that bolt to the panel, but you'll need two it doesn't look like they'll fit.
May want to buy a new disconnect. Yours looks old and it may be difficult to now the listings for multiple wires under a screw. Getting compatible bars may even be a problem. I bought a 3R (raintight) Cutler Hammer disconnect that can do up to 125A for about $30 at home depot.
You have more serious problems here (I think volts500 answered some of these questions in a combined reply). You only have 3 wires, and must have 4. It also appears that you have a mix of neutrals and grounds on each bus. Hopefully, the neutrals are on one side and the ground on the other. If not, you need to rearrange them so that is the case. It looks like that big horizontal bar is connecting both your busses together. This needs to come out if you're separating the neutral and ground (unless there is yet another grounding bus that I don't see, but I don't know where it would fit). Then, connect an insulated neutral to the neutral bus and a grounding wire to the grounding bus. I'm not sure if that braided neutral counts as an insulated neutral. You should replace that cable with SER (3 insulated, 1 braided ground), or some other suitable wire/cable type.
Also, look for the bus that has a bonding screw into the cabinet back. This is the bus that must be ground. The other should be insulated and will be the neutral (hopefully, either bar can be bonded depending on which one you put the screw in). It doesn't matter which hole the ground wire uses, because the screws have a minimum and maximum wire limit -- just use one that is correct for your wire (and use the correct bus).
I can't see enough to now how salvagable this is -- you may need to start over.
I'd definitely see the advantage for the ground ring. I was thinking about the "feeder" wire from the box running down the side of the house. It just seems like insulated copper would keep a better (clean) connection between the strands of the stranded as opposed to bare copper exposed to the weather. Maybe bare in PVC is the way to go.
One more "last question": If I (re)run the ground wire to the water pipe is it the usual "staple every three feet" requirement ? Also, the existing ground wire runs in a "channel" above the foundation and below the joists where there are another half dozen pieces of romex in close proximity. Is this an issue or is it OK to run parallel to these ?
Code does not define how to measure resistance of earth ground. The same application notes that demonstrate how to install a more serious 'single point earth ground' (which is labeled MGB in the picture):
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(figure on page
14 or)
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entitled "Measuring Ground Resistance at Cellular Sites,Microwave and Radio Towers")
That Lem > >> Code does not define how that earth resistance is to be
Code does not state distance to water pipe because code addresses human safety issues. Wire length in a residence is irrelevant for human safety. But wire longer than 10 feet has adverse effects to earthing for surge protection. Again, code is only concerned with wire resistance. Surge protection worries about wire impedance which is why that wire must be short and other requirements (no splices, no sharp bends, etc).
Transistor safety (also known as surge protection) is beyond scope and purpose of the NEC. After all, who creates NEC requirements? National Fire Protection Association - because code is written to protect human life.
But for transistor safety, that ground wire length and how the earthing system is connected (single point earth ground) exceeds what code requires. We must enhance an 'NEC required' earthing system to also provide an effective 'surge protection' earthing system.
For example, a ground wire can be grouped with other wires to meet NEC. But for effective surge protection, that earthing wire must be separate from other wires - so as to not create induced surges on those other wires. Ground wire must not be in close electromagnetic proximity with other non earthing wires. Code does not require this because code does not fully address surge protection issues.
Ground wire from incoming utility can connect to breaker box ground to meet code. But for surge protection, the earthing system must be enhanced. All earthing wires must run independently and meet at the central earth ground - be it the MGB, bulkhead, earthed structural member, or earth ground rod(s). All utilities must meet at this single point ground to upgrade an 'NEC required' earth ground into an effective surge protection earth ground.
Other limitations. Buried ground wire may be 2 foot deep to meet code. But for surge protection, that wire must also remain below the frost line. Earth ground is non conductive when frozen. Therefore many ring grounds also include 8' earth ground rods to address problems such as deep frozen earth and geology variations.
Sand is also a serious problem for earthing.
Halo or r> > >>> To summarize, if you have a metal water pipe that is in contact
Thanks to your help and the help of others I now feel I know enough to keep the electrician honest. I've got the soars book on order and I plan to do some of the grunt work myself. I honestly didn't realize this thread would get so involved. It's very kind of you to help out while keeping the focus on my safety. To ease my guilt at having imposed on so much of your time, I can only hope others will get some use out of it as well.
Keeping everything in mind, I'm going to follow Volt's advice for all the grounding. I'm also going to replace the Service Disconnect (as Mark suggested), and rewire the panelboard. Now, this opens up a few more questions. If I had any shame, I would feel too guilty to ask any more, but I guess I'm a bit shameless. If you guys would start giving crappy and vague advice, you really would avoid people like me buggying you so much. ;)
Volts: It appears that the metal housing of the water meter negates the need to jumper it. In this case, I think it would be better to simply attach the grounding clamp as near as possible to the point at which the pipe enters the home. Agreed? (See image)
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As for outgoing circuits, what kind of trouble can be caused by having a mix of neutrals and grounds on each bus? I'm gonna fix it no matter what, but it won't be the first thing I do.
You've seen my Service Disconnect box. Is it common to have a separate service disconnect box as I do? Had it been wired correctly, couldn't I have just used the panelboard which has it's own 100 AMP breaker) and then skip the current Service Disconnect box?
Tell me I have this right. Let's assume I keep the Service Disconnect at
100 AMP but I want to upgrade the box. I would then get a new box (that supports at least 100amps) then add a 100 AMP breaker for the incoming power and then get another 100 AMP breaker for the power outgoing to the panelboard. In other words, because my panelboard has room for the circuits I need and that I forsee needing, I see no reason to try to run circuits from my new Service Disconnect box and therfore, the power should just go straight through. Put another way, I'm not using the panelboard as a subpanel in the traditonal sense. I'm using the panelboard for ALL circuits and the Service Disconnect is really nothing more than a way to kill the main power and provide a lauching point for grouding conductors. Is there anything wrong with this setup?
My main service breaker only allows for 100amps. I've read that a 100 breaker usually means you can go 200 or more, but I've totaled up the amps of the circuits in my panel box and it's around 500! However, in the two years I've lived here, I've never once thrown a breaker. Also, some of the circuits are used seasonally. I've got 60 amps dedicated to the AC, but I also have 160 amps dedicated to space heaters which I almost never use, not even in the winter time (because that same room also has a wood stove). Is it time to upgrade to 200amps?
I regards to power coming into my home (2 hot/1 neutral), how much power is available? I mean, right now, judging by the breaker in my Service Disconnect, I'm utilizing up to 100 AMPs of power. If I wanted to go 200, then can I just upgrade to a breaker and panel that support the extra amps? Or, is there some kind of physical change the Power Co will have to make?
Don't feel guilty -- that what these forums are for. If we get tired of your questions, you'll only get lame (or no) answers.
If it is service equipment, then none as ground and neutral are the same. In a subpanel, the voltage drop across the neutral will raise your ground this same amount (typically 1 to 3 volts). For things that actually go to a true ground, such as audio tuners and cable TV cables, you'll get a current flowing in the shield causing noise, hum, or other interesting behavior.
This seems to be a regional thing. Some areas demand an outside disconnect. Where I live, the disconnects can be inside the house as long as they are very near where the service cables enter. Since your second panel is also outside, you meet the outside disconnect rule. The only other issue would be if your area has a limitation on how far the main disconnect needs to be from the meter. If they have one, it may be short, like 5 feet. The intent here is to minimize the length of unfused service conductors and the amount of structure they will damage should they flame up.
The first panel is still your service disconnect because it has a breaker in it. Additional service rated panels must be grouped (can't be 20 feet across the wall) and there is usually no fusing between them. If your local inspector says its OK, you may be able to replace the 100A disconnect with just a junction box if the existing house circuit panel has a 100A main disconnect. Then run new wires from the meter base to the panel where all your circuits are and use it as a main service rated panel.
Again a local thing. Here, all services must be wired for 200A, but you could put in a 100A breakered panel if you want to. The wires will have to be sized for 200A though. If your service wires are 100A, then you can't increase to 200A without replacing them. Same with your meter base -- is it
100A or 200A? You can put a 200A breakered panel on a 100A service if you've done a load calculation and it indicates you're not exceeding the 100A service. Finally, check with your utility to see how big your transformer is. You'll want at least a 20 KVA for a 200A service, and preferably a 25 or
30 KVA.
100A is available at 240V (24 KVA). Power company may have to increase their wires to you and may have to increase the transformer. You may have to increase the meter base, the service entrance wires and the main panel.
Now we're getting into the what if's and why for's (Although you seem to be grasping the concepts, I'm trying to avoid all of that to keep misunderstandings to a minimum.) Best to jumper the meter and be done with it.......$2 part, 5 min. work, tops. Don't forget to jumper the hot water to the cold water at the water meter.
Can cause all sorts of nasty problems. I think Mark covered that and the rest of it pretty well.
Most water meters that I'm familiar with use rubber compression or washer type seals. Those big brass nuts, they really don't connect electrically to the tubing to the meter body all that well.
Actually, both my Service Disconnect and Panelboard are inside the house. Outside the house there is only a meter. All in all, having a separate Service Disconnect is fine for now, although I think I'll replace it with the Cutler Hammer box you suggested. Of course the Power Co will have to someone disconnect power for the Service Disconnect to be rewired. How does the Power Co go about shutting down power? Do they have to climb the pole or is there something they can do at the meter?
The meter says something like "200cl 240v 3w" I'll give the Power Co a call and look into it. I'm sure it's not a black and white issue, but if I'm not throwing breakers, is it fair to say I don't really need 200A at this time? I hate to rewire everything only to decide later that I need to upgrade the panelboard too.
I'll go ahead and jumper that water meter as you said. Regarding the ground wire going from netural bar to water heater over to water meter.... While trying not to make dramtic bends in the conductor, it's going to be almost impossible to prevent the it from contacting the metal ducts and armored cable that run along the ceiling. I suppose I could try to insulate the wire somehow when it gets near the AC, or perhaps I can find some insulated green #4 (afterall, this is being used inside anyway). Does contact with the ducts or AC create a problem? About how much bend can a ground wire take (and still function well)? 135 degrees?
(OK, different subject, I have voided my previous "last question" offer).
If you only have a service panel - as in the meter is on a box and direct wired to a 100A breaker in the service panel - are there rules about separating ground and neutral ? In my box, it's all one bus bar. I also have a subpanel off the main panel - do the rules change when we get into the subpanel ?
Yes. At the service, where you have the meter and main breaker, this is your Service Disconnect and it is where your "Service" stops. This is the last place that neutral and ground are connected together. If you have another panel in the house, this is a subpanel and it must have a 4 wire feeder and the neutral and ground busses must be isolated. Only the grounding bus may be electrically connected to the panel enclosure in a subpanel.
There is an exception to this for a panels at detached buildings, but there must be no electrically conductive path between the service equipment and the remote panelboards (ecxcept for the service feeder itself). Typical connections that would mandate a 4 wire feeder to a remote building -- grounded phone or CATV wires, or metal water, gas, or oil pipes. I also think that mobile homes must have a 4 wire feeder from the typically yard mounted pole/disconnect.
The idiot that did my house ran a 3-wire feeder to the pool shed (which because its a pool is not allowed), but there is an oil pipe in there and another one in the house. The oil pipe was a parallel neutral back to the panel. Thankfully, this pipe was not loose or arcing in the oil tank!
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