grab bars installation

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Hello ng,
I've got a little project to add some grab bars. One is next to a toilet, and they want it diagonal. Another is next to the shower stall and vertical. The third is inside the shower and diagonal.
The house is in Oakland, CA. It has real 2 x 4's, lathe and plaster, and tile in the shower.
Q1) Should I expect 16" on center framing?
When at all possible, I want to be fastening onto studs.
Q2) If not possible, then are toggle bolts the best way to go?
At home depot, they had "Glacier Bay" products that looked really chintzy, and half of what was out there had been returned and re-taped.
Elsewhere, I've found "Delta" products that looked a little better.
I can order "Moen" products online, and they're a brand that hasn't made me regret ever using them
Q3) What brand would you go with?
Finally, I want to get every bit of fastening power I can out of these, and toggle bolts get slumpy if they have any play in them and poor performers for handling the vertical load.
Q4) What in the world of adhesives might is use to promote a better bond between the flange and the ceramic walls that might have 1/2" holes drilled in it? Isn't there some chance that water could find its way in if I don't put something goopy where I half 1/2" tunnels for the toggle bolts? Off the top of my head, I was thinking of ordinary bathroom caulk, epoxy, or silicon.
Thanks for your comment,
--
Cal

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See if you can get a copy if the gov CD on the ADA requirements/
Secind check some if the disability sutes (usenet is decreasing so blogs might be a better bet
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Unless you want to open things up and put in some deadwood, toggles or molly bolts are about it.
--

dadiOH
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On 12/19/2014 4:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:

You want to be either directly into studs or into something strong which is well attached to the studs. In my mind regular anchors or molly bolts don't begin to meet the strength requirements - remember that one of these bars might suddenly be expected to support hundreds of pounds and failure is not an option. You are the one who will be called into court to explain the failure.
Moen makes the best bars I've found. Their stainless are my preferred option and Amazon sells them pretty cheaply. I have always depended on opening the wall (from the front or the rear) in question and installing either 3/4" or 7/8" plywood to 2X2 cleats screwed and glued to the studs. Making the plywood at least 2 feet wide spanning from 18" to 42" from the floor removes most anxiety over aiming the screws. If this is impossible (it ain't easy!) then Moen makes some anchors which they claim will always do the job when applied correctly. Drilling heavy porcelain tile is always a bitch and drilling the big hole for one of the Moen anchors will call for a good diamond core bit. For smaller screw holes Amazon sells multi-packs of throw-away 15/64" Chinese diamond bits which will last for two or three holes if you keep them well wetted while drilling.
Moen anchors: http://www.moen.com/shared/docs/product-specifications/sma1000sp.pdf
No matter what you do, make sure that sufficient silicone caulking is used to keep water out of the joint -- it will get in where you least expect it and will never do the wall any good.
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On 12/19/2014 7:59 PM, BenignBodger wrote:

+1
Except I don't know about Moen products, they may be fine, I simply haven't tried them.
My wife was in accident and is now crippled. I purchased grab bars at the local medical supply house. Chromed steel bars need to be screwed into solid wood. That may mean opening up the wall and installing plywood (3/4" minimum) using cleats (or letting plywood into) the existing studs. It is absolutely mandatory that the bars support at least 300 lbs, more is better for saftey. I chose a total remodel for other reasons so this wasn't a problem for me. If you can get to it from an adjoining room so much the better. If you can't then consider it a good time to remodel. Either way *do not* skimp on the support as there are many hard surfaces in a bathroom that can cause fatal injuries in a fall.
I tried the lever and suction models designed for the purpose and found that they are useless so don't waste your money. In fact they are worse than useless in that they appear to work when first applied but over a day or so loosen up and fail.
John
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On 12/20/2014 1:17 AM, John wrote:

That's real world wisdom. Do the job right, and do good anchor. Thank you.
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On 12/20/2014 1:17 AM, John wrote:

I had one temporarily at the shower before I remodeled. Don't think of it as a grab bar, but something to steady yourself. They are not designed to hold serious weight.
It did let go a couple of times, but on a smooth surface it would stay for a few weeks. Real bars are the right solution though.
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Can you get to the other side of the installing wall and make a small explo ratory hole? If not, is there a closet or someplace you can see what the m ounting centers are for the studs. Maybe a climb into the attic will revea l somthing, you can look strsight down on the header above an inside wall a nd see where the nails go straight down into the top of the studs if the wa lls were prenailed before erecting them. Maybe a deep-penetration setting on a regular electronic wall stud finder would be sensitive enough to find the studs behind the plaster and lath.
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On 12/19/2014 9:24 PM, snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net wrote:

To add to what I posted yesterday:
Actual ADA approved grab bars have a screw pattern wider than a standard stud, so at best you may get 2 of 3 screws into the stud on one end and perhaps only one on the other end. Open the wall, put in solid wood and do it right.
I also don't advise using bars that aren't knurled. Knurling is a cross hatch pattern machined into the metal. Wet hands can easily slip off of smooth surfaces. A smooth finish may look better but its an accident waiting to happen.
John
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On 12/19/2014 4:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:

Crap shoot on a house like that. Have you tried a stud finder? Not sure how they work with lath. I'd try some holes in a closet wall.

There are anchors made for them. Never used them but probably better than regular toggles.

The bars I put in the upstairs bath came from the plumbing supply but I don't recall the brand. Downstairs i used Moen. I'd say they are equal in stability, quality, and nearly identical flanges. The Moen has a slightly smoother grab if that matters.

I don't think water will be much of a problem. Run a bead of silicone on the inside edge of the flange and it will seal with no visible caulk.
You will be able to Google placement easily if you have questions. Every shower should have them even if you are not old.
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On 12/19/2014 4:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:

Wood or metal lathe? I have metal and it makes a stud finder useless.
--
Froz...


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On 12/20/2014 12:02 AM, FrozenNorth wrote:

Try not to get your hair caught in the lathe. Especially when the lathe is running.
http://colinhansen.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/wood-lathe-christs.jpg
And it should be on GFCI when used in the shower.
--
.
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On 12/19/2014 03:20 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:

I just added some to the basement stairway of my 19th century home.
First off, since someone might be putting a lot of weight on the grab bars, it would be better to anchor them right into the studs. However since the wall is lathe and plaster , toggle bolts would certainly be better than if trying to install on thin Sheetrock.
I assumed my house would be non-standard so used a stud finder...but due to artifacts in the lathe and plaster, it was not correct.
I ended up finding the studs the old fashioned way by simply driving in an extremely fine nail until I hit studs. The eight tiny holes I made were easily filled by a tiny dab of Spackle applied with my finger tip.
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On 12/20/2014 9:14 AM, philo wrote:

How do you use your lathe
http://colinhansen.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/wood-lathe-christs.jpg
if you put plaster on it?
BTW, there is a home wall construction technique called "lath and plaster."
- . Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
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On 12/20/2014 6:54 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Dude, you can read the crap that JS, jr. quoth whilst looking into a hat at face value, and you're harping on my mistaken terminal "e"? I could rattle off a hundred glaring mistakes from his forgery, but the one I find most compelling is that no one would write "and it came to pass" in metal a thousand times. Try it once. Use the Gaelic characters that JS jr. produced as evidence of his "reformed egyptian."
--
Cal

"Mormonism: ten minutes on the internet can save you ten percent."
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On 12/20/2014 03:41 PM, Cal Dershowitz wrote:

As you see "SN" is the newsgroup troll.
Pay no attention to him.
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I can imagine that. I use my towel bar even thught it's barely attached to the wall, and I've pulled out two simlarly mounted ones. I wouldn't say I steady myself with it so much as it's a leading indicator of whether I'm tipping over, even before my toes or my semicircular canals know it. So I can asjust how my feet are keeping me standing up.
I put in a grabbar for my mother once, and I drilled the holes smaller than normal, to be SURE the screws didn't come out.
It was hard to get them in and nearly impossible to get them out, It was a contest to see if the screw slots and heads got ruined before the screws were out. And it was a rented apartment, so I didn't want to leave this for them. My mother had been there for about 10 years, and they told me not to worry about filling holes or spackling, but a screw or two sticking out was going too far.
It was not on tile, and I had no trouble finding studs. They had sheet rock but the electronic stud finders are fantastic, and a good one (like the first one that came out, before maybe cheaper ones) with a sensitivity adjustment knob would. I think. work with lath.

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wrote:

Chris did not quote you. He was responding to Philo and he was just being funny.
Maybe your news server didn't deliver the post which Chris replied to (although he quoted it), or maybe you're upset about the ailments which are causing someone in your family to need the grab bar. On those possibilities, I will not tell you to "Get a grip."

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John posted for all of us...

on a regular electronic wall stud finder would be sensitive enough to find the studs behind the plaster and lath.

+50 as a user of them.
--
Tekkie

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Double negatives are hard to follow. Don't use no double negatives, nohow. Avoid double negatives like the plague, and keep far away from double negatives.
--
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Christopher A. Young
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