Going Rate for Carpenters?

[ccs>ikyr]

Seems to me the carpenter on my kitchen project is underpaid by the general contractor.

He told me he's getting $30 an hour, which seems absurd given how good he is.

From what I can tell, the framing, drywall, cabinet hanging is all

first rate, and most importantly, he's able to react to problems and tweak things so they look right in what is a pretty weird open plan kitchen.

I don't know if the GC is paying him benefits or servicing the van. Naturally he's covering workman's comp. I know the carpenter has his own tools.

Anyway, in this blistering market for new construction and remodelling, it doesn't compute, to me, that he's only pulling $30 an hour. I'm in the DC area, which is pretty freaking hot. Seems like every mother in the school parking lot is talking about their remodelling job.

Any thoughts?

[Brian]

Yeah I can hire 3 mexicans for that much.

You do need experience, but not much education.....

[bambam]

Aren't you the same guy who's saying this contractor can't be trusted to cut down a couple of cabinets.

Only one... this is none of your business.

You don't know what the contractual relationship is between the two ... and you have no idea whether or not the carpenter is telling you the truth.

Why on earth do you care? And what makes you think it is any of your business?

Ken

[ameijers]

Thought number one- don't rock the boat with your contractor while the job is underway. Thought number two- the going rate varies from area to area, union vs. non-union, and any side deals the carpenter may have with the GC. A little cash off the books is far from unknown, especially if the skilled trades are working as subcontractors, a common arrangement. Thought three- if the guy's work is that impressive, when the job is complete, write the GC a letter telling him that, and don't be shy about referring your friends to the company and/or that carpenter, if he also does side work. That is how custom carpentry has always worked- word of mouth is the best advertising. Once my father's company did custom houses for 2 or 3 of the local doctors, within a year, he was doing 4 or 5 doctor houses a year. He had one older guy too good to waste on framing- he moved him site to site for interior finish and custom built-ins.

aem sends...

[ccs>ikyr]

I was hoping to start a discussion of the market for carpenters, not a discussion of what is and isn't my business, which I think is beyond the scope of this group.

If you must know, I'm curious in general because I think labor markets are fascinating and in particular because I care about the tradesmen who work in my house.

[bambam]

Bull. If that were the case, you would have asked about the going rates for various trades. Not whether or not $30 an hour seemed right for a skilled guy like the carpenter who's installing your kitchen..

And just how does your caring about people who work in your home extend to 1) knowing how much he makes and 2) trying to determine through a newsgroup (for god's sake) whether or not that is appropriate? I think you've got too much time on your hands.

Ken

[I.dont.read.email]

I charge $550 per hour for general carpentry. When do you want me to start the job for you?

[RicodJour]

You seem a little touchy on this topic, Ken. Why?

The question comes up frequently - it's not like the OP is asking something outrageous.

To the OP: the GC probably bills him out at a multiplier of at least

2x and probably 3x which sounds about right. Could he make more working for himself? Probably. But then he'd have to deal with the paperwork, insurance, etc., etc. He probably is happy to get his grand or grand and a half a week and leave the headaches to someone else. R

[ben.aust]

Maybe it's the market rate. Your carpenter should know what the market rate is & he can always go somewhere else if someone else offers more money.

I'm sure the GC is charging you a lot more for his time than they are paying him. It's the nature of the business.

[Steve B]

That, sir, is an insult.

Well, if it were that simple. The "tradesmen who work in my house" may tell you that they are "only" getting $X per hour, and the greedy contractor is charging $XX per hour! What they don't tell you, and what you don't understand is that the contractor has spent the time to get the license, and that ain't no small deal. It makes them legally responsible, and the one you go after if things aren't done right. The contractor pays for bid bonds, performance bonds, surety bonds, and other bonds to protect the consumer. The contractor is forced to pay exorbidant rates by insurance companies who, because of their extortion practices, would make good loansharks. The contractor has to pay high worker compensation insurance to make up for the 10:1 doofus:craftsman rate. (that may be 100:1 depending on your location) If something's not right, do you call the contractor or the craftsman? The contractor provides all the thousands of dollars of tools and equipment used to work on your house, many of which times he could go out and rent it and make you pay for it.

I could go on for about half an hour, but I HOPE you get the idea.

Next time you want something remodeled, throw the dice. Drive to the part of your town where the day laborers are, and get a pickup full. Do all the things that the contractor usually does. Buy materials. Get them delivered. Go order stuff. Go follow up when stuff isn't delivered. Handle a group of craftsmen/doofuses/winos to get a project done. And if you have a problem, try to find one of them to come back and make it right.

You will soon understand what a contractor goes through every day of his life, and the difference between a craftsman and a contractor. Many a craftsman fails when going into business for themselves because they are good at what they do, and no good at the business/management portion of the operation. And they usually are VERY content to just fall back and work by the hour and have their Tylenol bill go waaaaay down.

Then, you will be writing in asking why contractors don't make more.

Just some thoughts from a retired contractor. (steel erection, State of Nevada)

Steve

[ccs>ikyr]

You're chasing shadows, Ken. Let it go.

[ccs>ikyr]

Thanks to RicodJour, Steve B and ameijers for the insight into the way the contracting business is run. This was (and is) a simple honest inquiry about what the going rate for carpenters is and what other hidden costs there are that the contractor or carpenter might be shouldering that I don't know about because I'm not in that business. If you read anything else into it, you're beating on a straw man -- fun and therapeutic, but looks a little silly to the people watching.

[dadiOH]

Nothing stops you from adding to his $60,000 a year or so pay. I'm sure he would welcome a $5,000 tip to help lift him from abject poverty.

-- dadiOH ____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06... ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that. Get it at

[Steve B]

Thank you for speaking for all the people you consider to be unwashed rabble, inferior to yourself, and unable to state their feelings and opinions for themselves.

This makes me believe you are a troll. You state you don't know anything about the business, yet pontificate about the way things SHOULD be.

You sound like a liberal to me.

PLONK

Steve

[ccs>ikyr]

Straw man. Look it up.

[bambam]

And when it has come up in the past, I have answered it -- where my knowledge or experience seems applicable.

My take on it, Rico, is that he is not asking in general terms ... he wants to know whether one particular tradesman currently working in his home is making a fair wage. Ignore the rationalizations and denials and look at the context.

If you look at his other post ...."I paid a FORTUNE for custom cabinets and I want custom cabinets ...." , you'll see he stops just short of stamping his foot like a four year old. My take is that he is a PITA who has a decent contractor working for him and isn't smart enough to know it.

I see no reason for this group to get involved in whether one carpenter working on a specific project in a specfic house is being fairly paid. Particularly if it would provide ammunition for a PITA.

Exactly. The one thing you didn't mention is that the contractor likely provides him work whether there is a project or not. I buy and sell houses ... so that there'll be work for the boys in a down time.

Take care, Rico. Like your posts.

Ken

[BocesLib]

Most of these guys arent paid just by the hour. Many of which are done by getting a days pay.

I have seen carpenters get around 250 - 300 for the day.

Take that number (lets say 300) divide that between 8 hours and you'll get 37.50 an hour.

The'll take that money for the day whether they work or not. You generally dont want to pay these guys based on per hour then you really have to be on their asses get get shit done.

[ccs>ikyr]

If you're determined to see what you want to see, you'll always manage to see it, Ken. You asked about my motivations, and I told you. You're adding a lot of context from your own head to get where you want to go -- that I'm one of the "PITA"s you deal with.

I'm sympathetic, actually. I know plenty of people who treat tradesmen and GCs disrespectfully and I know that I don't.

You'll notice that in the other thread you're referencing, I asked here

*first* what a reasonable expectation about the cabinets was before pushing back with the contractor because this group provides a wealth of advice from experienced people. What's more, when my fears turned out to be unfounded, I promptly posted that right in the thread. See for yourself.

What's more, it's easy enough to see everything I've ever posted to this group through groups.google.com, and you'll see the same respectful attitude.

This is nothing more than an honest question about going wages for carpenters, all carpenters. I've learned a lot about your side of the business from other people's responses (including Steve B's). For what it's worth, it wasn't my intention to demand the GC pay the carpenter something different. I might tip the carpenter more at the end depending on what I learn, and I'll certainly consider the matter when recommending the GC to other people, but I accept the things I can't change.

I talk to people regularly at the corporate level of the construction supplies industry in my job and one thing I've been hearing for a couple years now is that with housing starts shooting through the roof, good carpenters are very hard to get. Naturally, I wonder why my carpenter's wages aren't climbing.

Cheers,

CCS

[bambam]

There is no such thing as all carpenters -- any more than there are "all lawyers" or "all bookkeepers".

I'm in one of the hottest renovations markets in North America. Very competitve for trades.

The lowest I pay a rough carpenter (right out of school, no tools, no experience) is fifteen to eighteen an hour. As soon as they are able, I move them to piece work on framing and if they're any good, introduce them to finishing. If they have a good work ethic, they will earn from 25 to 35 dollars an hour.

For finish carpenters, with tools and experience, the low is 30, the high is 35. Most work on piece work, and do better than that.

For cabinet makers, the low is 35, the high is .... whatever it takes. Again, as soon as a guy proves himself (or herself), they move onto piece work.

Plumbers -- 28 - 50 an hour. Electricians 30 - 50 an hour. Tin tappers 30 - 50 an hour.

Boarders and tapers 25 cents a s.f. Minimum 150 dollars per appearance on the job site..

Painters 2.60 s.f. floor area. 300 per day.

Tilesetters -- 4 - 6 per s.f. depending.

Basically, everyone should earn 200 a day whether they work or not. The experienced pros should be earning 300 - 500.

If they're not, projects are lagging.

---------

Don't tip the carpenter. That's insulting. Buy him a present, a gift certificate, a bottle whatever.

Or just say thanks.

[ccs>ikyr]

Great information.

Thanks a million.