No, that can't be right :-(
7' diameter coils for 100' total length is only about 4.5 turns. Spread out in a flat spiral, that would be 7' wide and about 16' feet long. Still a fair piece of real-estate.daestrom
A mere disk, only 1 layer tall.
... with no crossings.
I think we have some posting delay, and you musta missed this posting:
Article 111798 of alt.energy.homepower: From: snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu Newsgroups: alt.home.repair,alt.solar.thermal,alt.energy.homepower, misc.c>... who has space for 100' of 4" pipe (vertical, coiled or otherwise).[?]
The 4" tall spiral hung under a basement ceiling would be about 7' in diameter. The 6' tall coil would occupy a 2.7' floor circle. It seems simpler to install and might have better stratification.
10 PI=4*ATN(1) 20 D=4.25'pipe OD (inches) 30 L=100'pipe length (feet) 40 DI=2'coil ID (feet) 50 DO=DI+2*D/12'coil OD (feet) 60 CI=PI*DI'inner circumference (feet) 70 NT=L/CI'number of turns 80 H=NT*D/12'coil height (feet) 90 PRINT D,DI,DO,NT,H 4.25 2 2.708333 15.91549 5.63673810 PI=4*ATN(1)
20 D=4.25'pipe OD (inches) 30 L=100'pipe length (feet) 40 A=D*L/12'pipe area (ft^2) 50 DI=2'flat spiral ID (feet) 60 DO=2*SQR(A/PI+(DI/2)^2)'spiral OD (feet) 70 NT=12*(DO-DI)/2/D'number of turns 80 PRINT D,DI,DO,NT 4.25 2 7.006704 7.068288Nick
Not Canada, Australia has the spec
Robert Gammon wrote
Irrelevant to what is being discussed, whether water MUST be heated to over 140F to kill bacteria. That clearly isnt necessary if the water is chlorinated town supply and the water isnt stored on site before use.
We dont bother to heat the cold water to over
140F before using it in the kitchen, for a reason.
Yah, I think so.
I was thinking of a helical arrangement, you're talking about a spiral like a phonograph groove.
Yes, it could be that small.
daestrom
I thought that was because of the peculiarity of bacteria in the wooden dams that hold the water supply for the area around Sydney, NSW.
Certainly not a worldwide norm.
What do you do when you get to the center of the phonograph? Isn't there still at least one crossover needed?
snipped-for-privacy@XReXXGFXXv.usenet.us.com wrote
No such animal.
Precisely the same type of dams are used around Sydney as are use virtually everywhere else in the first world.
phhhht......phhhht......phhhht......phhhht......phhhht......phhhht......
Hit the reject button to get the needle back.
Greywater might enter and leave via the upper vertical arm of a 4" PVC T at each end of the corrugated drainpipe spiral. Fresh water might enter and leave via the ends of the Ts.
Nick
Suppose we take a shower and collect 100 F greywater in the upper part of a $30 100'x4" black plastic corrugated drainpipe coil containing 3 $20
100'x1" pieces of black plastic polyethylene pipe, with bidirectional plug flow, like this, viewed in a fixed font like Courier:shower in | --------->--------------------------------> hot water to shower | | Tl | --------- sewer --------- | | Tg | out | 120F | | | | | | | | | ^ | | | | | | | | | |1" |4" | | tank | | | | | | water | | | | | | heater | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |---- | | | | | | 55F | --------- P --------- | ---- Tc | -----------------|
This is so very very close to a GFX Star it isn't funny
What the Dr argues for is a el-cheapo electric water heater that is used solely as a storage tank. The inlet to the pump is thru a check valve that ties to the drain connection of the water heater/storage tank. Hot out of the heat exchanger then goes to TWO places.
Hot Out of the water heater/storage tank goes to Cold in on the normal water heater.
Nick's figures and the Power-Pipe folks argue that the heat recovery is equivalent to a 12-18KW electric heating element (for a 60 inch GFX). In testing of the the GFX done at at least a couple of universities, they found that the upper heating element in an electric water heater NEVER TURNED ON in ANY of their testing.
The heat recovery of a GFX when used in this configuration jump 15-20 percentage points and becomes an almost level 65-75% Course we will have 2KW/day losses in that storage tank. But with a CONSTANT input ot the normal Hot water heater of 85-90 F, it will merely LOAF along to deliver the HOT water needed.
One of the reasons for the higher heat recovery is that the flow rate thru the coil LEAPS. The Taco pumps will move up to 20Gal/hr depending on model to 20 feet. More realistically a Taco 006 or Taco 008 will delvier upwards of 10Gal/hr at 10 feet of height. Now we have 2x-4x MORE flow thru the coil than is flowing in the greywater. The graphs on the GFX web site illustrate what happens with higher coild flow rates.
GFX Star controls the pump via one of two methods
a. Timer - showers at KNOWN times EVERY day
b. Differential temperature controller -sensors on coil and inlet to the heat exchanger (GFX or Nick's) will trigger the pump when temp difference exceeds a set point - i.e. 2 or 3 degrees
I'm still not clear on that, after talking with Carmine again. One diff might be beneficial stratification in the greywater drainpipe, vs full mixing in a conventional greywater tank. At any rate, with 98.9% heat recovery, we might heat 50K Btu/day of water with 550 Btu/day, eg a 7 watt night light burning 24 hours per day :-)
Dr. V got US Customs to sieze Power Pipes at the border, based on a theft-of-trade-secrets charge, but they seem to have gotten around that.
We also discussed some testing techniques that were biased against GFX.
Maybe a lot more, with greywater plug flow.
That isn't part of my scheme, but another circulating pump could increase the velocity through the coil and the conductance inside the coil...
That's quite different. No timing for me, and I'd turn on the pump when the gw-fw temp diff at the output is LESS than 5 degrees.
Nick
Power-Pipe now has a US web site that gets them around the customs issue.
The pump with differential temperature control is the secret to higher recovery rates. Flow rate thru the coil in excess of flow rate of greywater will more efficiently transfer heat to the potable water.
Actually you could take this a step further and use a water storage tank > Robert Gamm>
Robert Gammon misunderstands again:
That's irrelevant.
That's quite different from what I have in mind.
How do you manage to be so wrong so often? :-)
Nick
Goto
You sir, need to READ first, before you make accusations that you cannot back up with facts.
In there he describes a patent pending application of GFX Star in an industrial process control application.
The models of what happens to the efficiency of his product with changing potable water flows thru the equipment are there for all to see.
Your attitude makes it DIFFICULT to hold a meaningful conversation with you. I'm not the first to say this.
My use of one of these, whether it is yours, a GFX, or a Power Pipe will closely follow the GFX Star guidelines. That is, a small, inexpensive pump controlled by a differential temperature controller will move water thru the coils ALWAYS in excess of water draw from the hot water tank. Very nearly 100% of my hotwater use WILL be going thru a heat exchanger, and with 4x coil flow to drain flow in almost all of my cases, efficiency of a 60inch S4 rises to over 74%.
I will NOT hang a 7 foot diameter coil of black PE tubing on the wall of my utility room, one that needs annual disassembly to hose down/ brush down the interior of the gray water containment pipe. Neither GFX nor Power-Pipe need such cleaning as they are NON clogging, even with BLACK water. Things may back up upstream or downstream of them, but not inside them.
OK, its not the 90+% that your model shows, but efficiency and cost are NOT the only criteria as we have already discussed.
Actually since he has a Patent application pending, if you attempt to offer a competing product to others that incorporates the ideas of GFX-Star, he can and probably WILL sue you for damages and shut down your business.
And since he has hundreds of these installed in the US and Canada, he has a BIG headstart on you.
I am remembering my visit incorrectly, then. My host, in Mossman, pointed out the risk of the DWH temperature, and commented on the wood that was a part of his water supply, reaching up and picking a sliver out of the nozzle in the shower.
What explanation is there for this heat requirement, which doesn't exist in most other parts of the first world?
Ah, you're not counting those Ts as part of the height of the unit, because it disappears magically into the rest of the plumbing. But the unit and it's accompanying plumbing cannot exist in a 4" high space.
snipped-for-privacy@XReXXGFXXv.usenet.us.com wrote
He was clearly pulling your leg.
Basically storage hot water services can end up with a significant problem if they arent run at a high enough temperature to kill bacteria, in situations where the water supply isnt chlorinated like with wells etc.
It does actually. Most obviously with Legionaire's Disease.
And the use of unchlorinated wells with residential property is much more common in north america too.
What working fluid would that be? Water has a much higher heat capacity than most any other fluid you're likely to find/afford. Best to stick with simple water.
As regards to increasing fresh-water flow, the GFX folks recommend plumbing so that the cold water enters the heat-exchanger *before* splitting to go to the hot-water heater and the cold tap in the shower. So the 'cold' water side of the shower is pre-heated (need less 'hot' water to stay comfortable) as well as the inlet to the hot-water heater. This raises the flow on the fresh-water side to equal the greywater flow.
Putting a pump to circulate between the 'dip tube' into the heater, and the drain could improve the circulation through the fresh-water side of the gfx. But you best be sure to insulate the piping. But with this setup would you still want the heat-exchanger's fresh-water outlet going to the cold shower tap?
I'm a bit skeptical. After all, the greywater coming in is cooler than the hot-water heater until you've cooled the bottom of the tank. But the bottom of the tank is receiving fresh-water out of the hx. Increasing the flow through the hx with a pump is going to put warm water into the hx inlet, mixing with the cold water from the main. Then sending the mixture of cold inlet water, and warm water from the heater drain into the hx. Just so you can put warmer water back into the bottom of the heater via the 'dip tube'. Net results seem to be higher flow, but the average temperature of the fresh-water side of the hx is higher and the greywater outlet temperature will be higher. I would wonder if the increase in heat transfer due to higher flow on one side only can make up for the lower temperature difference across the heat-exchanger walls.
daestrom
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