GFX vs home brew

Page 4 of 5  


That's irrelevant.

That's quite different from what I have in mind.
How do you manage to be so wrong so often? :-)
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

Goto www.gfxtechnology.com/GFX-STAR.html and click on Application Notes and click on the link to Retrofit of an existing Solar Hot Water Heater.
You sir, need to READ first, before you make accusations that you cannot back up with facts.
In there he describes a patent pending application of GFX Star in an industrial process control application.
The models of what happens to the efficiency of his product with changing potable water flows thru the equipment are there for all to see.
Your attitude makes it DIFFICULT to hold a meaningful conversation with you. I'm not the first to say this.
My use of one of these, whether it is yours, a GFX, or a Power Pipe will closely follow the GFX Star guidelines. That is, a small, inexpensive pump controlled by a differential temperature controller will move water thru the coils ALWAYS in excess of water draw from the hot water tank. Very nearly 100% of my hotwater use WILL be going thru a heat exchanger, and with 4x coil flow to drain flow in almost all of my cases, efficiency of a 60inch S4 rises to over 74%.
I will NOT hang a 7 foot diameter coil of black PE tubing on the wall of my utility room, one that needs annual disassembly to hose down/ brush down the interior of the gray water containment pipe. Neither GFX nor Power-Pipe need such cleaning as they are NON clogging, even with BLACK water. Things may back up upstream or downstream of them, but not inside them.
OK, its not the 90+% that your model shows, but efficiency and cost are NOT the only criteria as we have already discussed.
Actually since he has a Patent application pending, if you attempt to offer a competing product to others that incorporates the ideas of GFX-Star, he can and probably WILL sue you for damages and shut down your business.
And since he has hundreds of these installed in the US and Canada, he has a BIG headstart on you.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
misunderstands again: <snip>

Okay, *I* read the documents. It is clear that you must have a separate storage tank for the GFX-star setup to work 'as advertised'. Only by using a *cooler* separate storage tank is the setup able to capture the waste heat from 'batch' drains. Once the storage tank reaches the temperature of the greywater (or exceeds it in the conventional heater storage tank), performance will drop off.
This way can effectively 'shift' the heat from outgoing batch drains to a separate storage tank of fresh-water. So the greywater doesn't have to be stored, and you can still use the low-maintenance, straight-bore, GFX heat-exchanger.
For 'best' performance, you would want to route the storage tank outlet to the 'cold' tap for the shower as well. This looks like their 'tempering valve' arrangement. But you might be better off routing straight 'cold' water from the supply directly to sinks and laundry, bypassing the whole setup for cold supply to those usage points. Otherwise you would be wasting some of the captured heat on laundry, and who wants a glass of warm water to drink. Some more plumbing :-(
Someone mentioned some concerns about storage tank of 'warm' water and Legionarries disease. But if you have treated water, that probably isn't too much of a concern.
daestrom
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It is with storage water heaters.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
In tests of thousands of water heaters 40% were found to contain lethal doses of legionella bacteria.
Further testing found that none of the water heaters were gas fired. Only the electric heated units were the problem below the bottom element.
I believe as long as the water is moving frequently and/or heated past 96F the legionella is rendered inert.
misunderstands again:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Bet that was just because so few of them were gas fired.

Because most codes mandate a minimum thermostat temp.

You're wrong on that last. Needs to be 140F
And there is no 'rendered inert', its either killed or it aint.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Do your comments represent anything?
You need to read some documentation on Legionella bacteria.
misunderstands again:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

Never ever could bullshit its way out of a wet paper bag.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
daestrom wrote:

Well in the Solar Heater Retrofit, HE DOES NOT USE A SEPARATE TANK!!!

In NEW construction easy to do, or in a home with ALL plumbing in the basement, this is just a few new runs of 'cold' water. I see the laundry also getting the warm water from the heat exchanger. Only refrigerator water supply, and sinks get untreated water. Most all the clothes washing we do is in Warm water, so if that winds up being a bit warmer than usual, OK.

Its not just Legionnaires, there are an army of bacteria waiting to do damage. Water with chlorine added, ie city water supplies will be ok. Well water needs special treatment. My application will be new construction with a well. All water will be processed thru a Whole House Filter to get rid of sand and silt. Then it goes thru a 1000gal/day RO with UV to a 350-500 gallon storage tank. A 65psi pump thn delivers this water to all uses in the house.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Robert Gammon wrote:

Warm water to drink is not good, BUT neither is really cold water either. Our preference is for cold water, especially in HOT climates. However we will usually drink MORE water at a time if the water is in the 60-70F range than in the 40-50F range. The really cold stuff, we just sip every now and again. A bit warmer and we'll gulp it down.
So in areas that have 40s year round average cold water inlet temp, treat the WHOLE house to GFX treated water, raising cold water to 65F helps us drink more water and has no significant affect on cold water cleaning performance in the laundry.
Note we almost NEVER use the cold cycle in our laundry, so if Warm cycle water temp changes from 85F to 95F, so what!!!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What working fluid would that be? Water has a much higher heat capacity than most any other fluid you're likely to find/afford. Best to stick with simple water.
As regards to increasing fresh-water flow, the GFX folks recommend plumbing so that the cold water enters the heat-exchanger *before* splitting to go to the hot-water heater and the cold tap in the shower. So the 'cold' water side of the shower is pre-heated (need less 'hot' water to stay comfortable) as well as the inlet to the hot-water heater. This raises the flow on the fresh-water side to equal the greywater flow.
Putting a pump to circulate between the 'dip tube' into the heater, and the drain could improve the circulation through the fresh-water side of the gfx. But you best be sure to insulate the piping. But with this setup would you still want the heat-exchanger's fresh-water outlet going to the cold shower tap?
I'm a bit skeptical. After all, the greywater coming in is cooler than the hot-water heater until you've cooled the bottom of the tank. But the bottom of the tank is receiving fresh-water out of the hx. Increasing the flow through the hx with a pump is going to put warm water into the hx inlet, mixing with the cold water from the main. Then sending the mixture of cold inlet water, and warm water from the heater drain into the hx. Just so you can put warmer water back into the bottom of the heater via the 'dip tube'. Net results seem to be higher flow, but the average temperature of the fresh-water side of the hx is higher and the greywater outlet temperature will be higher. I would wonder if the increase in heat transfer due to higher flow on one side only can make up for the lower temperature difference across the heat-exchanger walls.
daestrom
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
daestrom wrote:

agreed that water is best, but think of Freon as an alternative.

Yes, and this works well in heating dominated climates where ground water temps average less than 50F year round.
But not here with our ground water already in the high 60s to mid 70s (I measured mine at 75F)

Yes, as that tempers the water to a reasonable temp. My water will come from a well, and I need to set my hot water tank to at least 140F to kill bacteria.
Foam insulation around piping and the heat exchanger seem to be useful ideas to conserve energy as does a water heat blanket for the storage tank.

The flow is from the drain plug at the LOW point of the storage tank thru the pump to mix with fresh water. Then thru the coil, and back in to the lower third of the storage tank. There will be mixing that occurs, however, this storage tank should achieve water temps in the 70-90F range depending on entering fresh water temp.
The idea is shown on the web site best under the solar hot water retrofit. The application data shows efficiency rising as flow rate thru the coil increases for a given flow rate down the drain.
Grey water temps may NOT increase at all due to the higher flow rate (same idea as the heat exchanger itself). This higher flow rate comes at a price of increased pressure loss and expense.
Coil inlet temp will be higher, but then so will coil outlet temp.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Connecting a GFX to a toilet drain is not going to be very sensible, however, unless you heat your toilet water - makes the most sense when connected to drains that might have hot water - putting it in the blackwater stack just adds one more way to have a toilet flush make your shower uncomfortable, and reduces the potential efficiency by reducing the temperature differential across the heat exchanger.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ecnerwal wrote:

Yes, there is no heat to recapture, UNLESS toliet supply is also hooked to GFX heat exchanger.
The point to adding in the toilets is to make installation simple. Locate the SINGLE sewer pipe in the basement that collects ALL waste water, and insert the GFX into the pipe.
Running toilet water to the mix of effluents processed by the system adds NOTHING to efficiency, but makes installation a BREEZE.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Wrong again, if the room temp is higher than the cold water temp.
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

I just realized my error, corrected myself and said yes, heat inlet water to toilets anyway to get a closer to a balanced flow, increasing the efficiency of the heat exchanger
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

But remember GFX can only recover heat from a 'running water' situation. So laundry (if you use hot water??), a bathtub, or a sink full of water used to wash dishes doesn't do *anything* in the GFX. It stores very little heat for recovery in these 'batch' mode processes.
It really only performs up to it's reputation with showers or if you run water continuously while doing the dishes or some such.
While Nick's is not as convenient, and it may have some long-term maintenance issues, it *does* recover/save energy from such batch processes. But with a total 'storage' of only about 12 gallons, it still wouldn't really help much in large bath-tub sort of thing (unless you bath in just 12 gallons of water).
daestrom
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Robert Gammon wrote:

Nick would like us to rebalance somewhat.
GFX Nick efficiency 6 8 <give Nick the benefit of the doubt on higher efficiency price 5 8 <lower price gets higher points convenience 8 2 <Nick must separate toilets from processing, GFX takes ALL wife friendly 5 1 <GFX almost invisible, Nick's is a largish stack of 4.5 inch pipe Maintenance 10 1 <GFX never needs maintenance, Nick's will need at least annual cleaning ------ ------- 34 20
So use Nick's system if you are on a TIGHT, TIGHT budget and don't mind the large coil of 4.5 inch black PE pipe in the basement, AND you can isolate the toilet drains from all other drains.
Nick says GFX needs a toothbrush for cleaning. WHAT???? Its a straight piece of 3 inch or 4 inch diameter copper pipe from 30 to 60 inches long that the wastewater flows thru. If it ever needed to be cleaned, its VERY simple to uncouple the clamps that hold it to the sewer, disconnect the water (if proper disconnect fittings are installed, usually not) , take it outside and flush the 3 inch or 4 inch copper tube with a hose, perhaps running a soapy rag down the inside to rub anuy residue off. However, the VERY VERY strong flow on the inside wall of the pipe should keep the inside nearly spotless, subject to ONLY the normal oxidation of copper in air
I can't as I have a slab foundation and NO basement (plumbing is buried beneath the slab). The ONLY choice for me is a sewage ejector in the corner of the garage, near where the main sewer line exits under the slab with a GFX stack in the corner above the sewage ejector.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Wrong again. Read much? :-)

Au contraire. That way, you could easily use either heat exchanger, and you might use the flat spiral version with no pump.
Nick
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@ece.villanova.edu wrote:

You are unaware of the terrain I live in. Ruler flat!!!!
Sewage ejector == PUMP
Yes I could use either one WITH A PUMP as there is NO WAY to intercept the sewer ABOVE ground. No basements here except in high rise buildings, certainly not in ANY homes.
In the 1200sq ft living space I have now, the ONLY unit that will work is the GFX. There is no room for yours UNLESS it goes in the ATTIC!!!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.