GFIC breakers

never mind... this is obvious now that i visualize the circuit in my head. the circuit stays intact upstream of the GFCI device even when it trips.

thanks for the heads up ml

Reply to
kzinNOSPAM99
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Right - you'll need to connect the GFCI with pigtails, like this: (view in fixed-space font such as Courier)

Black ---------------------+---------------- (incoming power) | (remainder of circuit) White ----------------+--- ) --------------- | | | | + + neut. hot GFCI LINE terminals

Make no connections at the GFCI LOAD terminals. This way, if the GFCI trips, that outlet drops power, but the rest of the circuit is unaffected.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Reply to
Doug Miller

It's all becoming clear to me now. There are actually a pair of breakers in these devices. One on the line and one on the load side. Both trip when the device trips but how you wire it gives you the option of just removing the device or additionally all of the downstream devices.

So lets say I wanted to keep the fridge outlet unprotected but wanted everything else on the circuit protected.

It seems to me the answer is to simply wire the fridge outlet as first in stream with an ordinary device and then make the 2nd outlet in the stream a GFCI wired to remove itself and all downstream outlets when it trips, i.e. using the load terminals to continue the downstream circuit rather than using the pigtail method you described.

One question though. It's not immediately obvious how the GFCI device sensor is isolated from the current surges when the fridge compressor comes on. Won't this trip the device? True the outlet to the fridge will still supply power and keep your food from rotting but won't you be having to constantly reset the time on coffee makers etc that are on the protected leg of the circuit.

thank you for all your help ml

Reply to
kzinNOSPAM99

Ahh reality rears it's ugly head.

Fridge outlet is last in the stream.

Hmmm let's see... add a box to splice a new piece of cable to the existing one from the panel so I can make the fridge outlet first in the stream or just make the two outlets GFCI devices wired to just remove themselves......

think that one answers itself....

ml

Reply to
kzinNOSPAM99

No, that is not correct. There is one interrupter that simultaneously disconnects the LOAD terminals and the outlet itself.

That is correct.

I doubt it.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Reply to
Doug Miller

The following discussion talks about GFCIs as if they are circuit breakers rated for 15 or 20 amps. But a GFCI does not trip at the rated current, it simply is designed to carry that amount of current.

GFCI trip when there is a imbalance of current between the two conductors. This can be caused by you touching one side or the other while standing in a puddle of water. They are very sensitive and I believe the test button just connects a 10K resistor to ground.

So, I don't see why any special provisions need to be made for a frige although you may want it to be the only thing on a breaker circuit because of compressor motor start-up transient current draw.

Reply to
William W. Plummer

It would be most unfortunate to wake up in the morning to find your GFI had tripped the evening before, for whatever reason.

It would probably be a lot like the time the start relay on my compressor failed one night, and I woke up the next morning to find a small pond from the melted ice all over my formerly unwarped parquet floor.

Reply to
Matt

All done.

2 GFCI's outlets followed by a non-GFCI outlet for the fridge. All is working perfectly. Thank you Doug for your accurate advice and putting up w/my questions. You probably saved me in the neighborhood of $500 today.

ml

Reply to
kzinNOSPAM99

ps. The refrigerator compressor kicking on is not tripping the upstream GFCI's.

Reply to
kzinNOSPAM99

Great!

You're welcome. Glad to help.

My bill is in the mail. :-)

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Reply to
Doug Miller

Why would you not want the fridge on that circuit? In fact as far as that goes if money were not an issue and you did not care what breakers cost why would you not use all GFCI breakers for the entire house?

Joe

Reply to
Joe
  1. You want a GFI to trip and shut down your smoke alarms?
  2. You want a GFI to trip and destroy all the food in your fridge?
Reply to
Matt

My house is only 6 years old so I have these breakers in my kitchen and bathrooms and they have never once tripped which tells me they have a very low false trip rate so if you do not care about the expense of installing them why not use them as they may save someone in a very bizarre situation. Joe

Reply to
Joe

installing

situation.

Yes, they may save someone in a very bizarre situation. But other than the very bizarre situations that you are concerned about, I'm comfortable using them only where they are most likely needed, and hesitate to put them into applications where they are not.

Because as I pointed out they may kill you too which is why its completely against code to put smoke alarms on a circuit protected by a GFI but if you want to wake up to a fridge full of rotten food and ice melted all over the floor or perhaps not be alerted to a fire well then go right ahead and put GFIs wherever you want in fact you could even replace every outlet with a GFI AND replace every breaker with a GFI breaker just to be extra extra safe after all it is America and it is your house well technically I suppose its probably the banks house but go right ahead and do what you want its possible they make GFI switches too and you could also replace all your switches with GFIs and maybe too you could only buy light fixtures with built in GFIs and then this way you are getting like backups to backups to backups to backups and your house will be really really safe and protected against really bizarre situations.

Unless of course, the misuse of a GFI kills you.

That would be completely different.

And - it would be really bizarre.

Reply to
Matt

Dude I am not trying to argue with you I am just trying to understand the reasoning. You say code prevents smoke alarms from being on a GFCI circuit. OK. By this reasoning it is more likely that a smoke alarm would be made inoperative from a false trigger when your house is on fire than something actually accruing on that line to trigger the GFCI to shut down and turn off the smoke alarm. By this same reasoning it would be more likely that a GFCI would falsely trigger and shut down the refrigerator causing spoiled food and someone eating it and dieing than the breaker correctly triggering in that circuit and saving someone's life. Granted all of these would be very bizarre situations but if the cost of doing it were not an issue I am having a hard time understanding the reason not just use the a GFCI breaker on every circuit in the house. Do they false trigger that often? They have not for me.

Joe

Reply to
Joe

Joe,

It's not an issue of how often they false trigger, or if they ever false trigger at all.

If you want to put a GFI on your fridge circuit - go ahead. There used to be a guy here named Tom Horne, and he had every version of the NEC ever released memorized.

He could tell you if there are any rules in the NEC that prohibit the use of a GFI on EVERY circuit, specifically on the utility circuits in your kitchen. I think Doug's constant posting of complete crap made Tom lose hope though, I havn't seen him post here in a long time.

I can tell you that as *I recall* (from the period I worked full time as an apprentice electrician, regardless of the people who will insist I am a plumber, or am not at all qualified in any way to comment on electricity or electrical related items) in a house your age the smoke alarms *should* have been wired on a dedicated circuit, and they

*should* also all have a third conductor which causes all of them to fire if any one of them fires.

I say this to you because *if* your smokes are all on one circuit - and

*if* (for whatever reason) the GFI you put in that circuit trips - the chances are VERY GOOD that you won't notice it.

And in this situation, you have turned a life saving device into a life taking device.

Reply to
Matt

Tends to be cheaper that way.

if you find the first outlet, you can protect all the down stream devices. I would makesure that you use a 15a gfci receptacle, only if it has a 20a passthru for your small applicance circuit.

Did they have "20amp small applicance circuits" back then?

tom

Reply to
The Real Tom

No, they don't false trigger all that often, but they don't safe lives all that often either. In the absence of water or other excacerbating circumstances, it's actually pretty rare for an electrical fault to do anything other than give someone a painful shock. So the point isn't than the negatives of a GFCI are big, it's that, while they're small, the positives aren't necessarily bigger. Even when numbers are really, really small, some of them are bigger than others.

Reply to
Goedjn

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