GFI Outlet-Where?

[Dick]

We are redoing our kitchen & I want to put in GFI outlets (house is 30 yrs old) in the kitchen. I believe I have read that that one GFI outlet in a circuit will protect the whole circuit.....If this is true, can the GFI outlet be installed in any of the kitchen outlets (as long as it's the same circuit) or the first one.....closest to the breaker box? How do determine which one (that will protect the whole circuit) or should I just go ahead & pull all GFI outlets near the sink?

[louie]

I'm no electrician, but I've always heard that it should be the first outlet in the circuit and all others tied to it will be protected. Not sure what codes are involved though.

[Pop]

The GFCI needs to be the first one in the chain, nearest the breaker box. Wires come into it from the breaker, and then the rest of the outlets are fed from the other side of the gfci outlet. That way all outlets on that line are protected. So, no, it shouldn't be placed just anywhere. Not sure what you mean by "pull all the ... near the sink", so I'll pass on that. All kitchen appliance outlets should be protected, though, the ones near the sink in particular. Here's one of many decent sites about the subject:

HTH,

[Dick]

[Colbyt]

Not an electrician.But here is what I know.

A GFI can be wired to protect outlets that come after that point in a circuit but nothing that comes before. They are required where an outlet is within 6 foot of an open water source like a sink, tub or toilet bowl. They are required on all exterior outlets. They are also required in garages and unfinished basements.

How can you trace a circuit? It just takes time. Start by identifying everything that is affected when a breaker is turned off. Then you open the boxes and look. If there are only 3 (white, black and bare) wires it the box that is a single outlet circuit or it is at the end of the circuit. Six wires indicates power in and power out. Generally the closer a box is to the service panel the closer it is to the beginning of a circuit.

If you are redoing your kitchen you may want to do a general upgrade by adding an extra circuit or two. We use a lot more electric in our kitchens today than we did 30 years ago. It seems like a general thing that most 20 amp kitchen circuits only have one or 2 outlets on them any more. The MW is the only item on that circuit. Most times the Fridge is by itself. DW and disposal each get their own. About half the breakers in a modern panel service the kitchen.

Colbyt

[Charlie Bress]

Take a guess at which is the one. Kill the power, disconnect the black wire coming into it, protect that loose end with a wirenut. Now turn the power back on and see what outlets are dead. Those are the ones that would be protected by the GFI.

Charlie

[RBM]

You got a lot of good answers,but let me clarify: All counter outlets in a kitchen must be GFCI protected. A thirty year old house in the U.S. would have at least two 20 amp circuits feeding the counter outlets. Therefore you'd need at least two GFCI outlets to protect the downstream receptacles. You first have to identify all the circuit breakers that feed counter outlets, then pull out outlets and disconnect wires,by trial and error to find the first ones on each circuit. Then wire them according to the diagram that comes with the outlet

[RBM]

Let me add this as well. Sometimes kitchen outlets were wired with three wire circuits so circuit A and circuit B can easily be staggered around the kitchen. With this type of arrangement you must use individual GFCI outlets at each location as GFCI outlets can't share a common neutral.

[Pop]

Well, it depends on your abilities and whether you can safely work around electricity. You're in kind of a gray area w/r to how outlets etc. may be wired in kitchens. Get kids, relatives, etc. out of the way and keep them there. Basically, pick out one outlet you want to protect. Find the breaker that kills it, and leave the breaker off. Accurately determine which OTHER outlets are also dead. Do NOT assume that beause one outlet in a pair of outlets is dead, that the other one is also dead. It MIGHT still have power on it! So, check EVERY SINGLE receptacle. If you find a duplex outlet with one receptacle dead, the other live, some "elegant" but totally legal wiring has been done. Probably best to get in an electrician unless you REALLY know what your'e doing! OK: Let's assume when you threw the breaker, that 4 duplex outlets total died. None of the eight recpetacles in the four outlet faceplates have power. That means one GFCI can protect all 4 of those outlets as long as you figure out which one is first in the line.

To do that: Take a guess and pull one outlet out of the wall box. Look for a black wire on a terminal. Disconnect a black wire. Tape the end of the loose wire or put a wirenut on it, and go turn on the breaker. If the other THREE outlets are all dead, you have found the first one in the line already! THAT is where the GFCI outlet goes.

If ANY of the other outlets are live, you didn't find the right one yet. Turn off the breaker again. Put the wire back on the outlet and put it back into the wall. Choose another outlet, pull it out, disconnect a black wire. Tape or wirenut that wire. Turn the breaker back on. See if ALL THREE Of the other outlets are dead. If so, you have the one where the GFCI goes. If not, try again.

And so on, until you find the right one which, when you disconnect the black wire, ALL THREE of the other outlets have no power.

Put the GFCI in, reconnect all wires, put everything back, and turn the breaker back on. Make sure ALL FOUR of the outlets (8 receptacles) have power now. Press the Test Button on the GFCI. ALL FOUR of our imaginary outlets (8 recpetacles) will lose power. If they don't all lose power, you've goofed something up. Start over or call an electrician.

In fact, as you go along, if anything seems strange or not working as I and others have said here, stop - put things back exactly as they were if you can do so accurately, and/or call an electician. It's possible for a duplex outlet to have two breakers feeding it, one for each of the two receptacles in it. That means you'd need two GFCI's, of course. One GFCI per breaker in the case we're discussing - other applcations can have more.

ELECTRICITY CAN STOP YOUR HEART IN LESS THAN ONE SECOND. So don't screw up and if you aren't confident of what you're doing, get reliable assistance.

HTH, Pop

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[maradcliff]

You can get a GFI breaker to protect the whole circuit, but got to run to the breaker box evertytime it trips. You can put one GFI outlet as the first in the chain, or put one GFI outlet in each box.

All of them work, but this is my opinion.

Put one GFI in each box. First off, you DO NOT want a GFI knocking out your refrigerator or freezer, just because the toaster developed a problem. Secondly, if you daisy chain GFI's, you got to figure out which item caused the problem and sometimes go to another location to reset it. It costs a few bucks more to put individual GFIs in each box, but it makes life much easier, particularly if you have a wife or others that are technically challenged. If the GFI pops in one outlet, you KNOW the problem is in whatever is hooked to THAT outlet, and your coffeepot wont stop working which is plugged into another outlet because the toaster went bad on the other end of the counter.

Mark

[Pop]

: wrote: : : >We are redoing our kitchen & I want to put in GFI outlets (house is 30 yrs : >old) in the kitchen. I believe I have read that that one GFI outlet in a : >circuit will protect the whole circuit.....If this is true, can the GFI : >outlet be installed in any of the kitchen outlets (as long as it's the same : >circuit) or the first one.....closest to the breaker box? How do determine : >which one (that will protect the whole circuit) or should I just go ahead & : >pull all GFI outlets near the sink? : >

: : You can get a GFI breaker to protect the whole circuit, but got to run : to the breaker box evertytime it trips. You can put one GFI outlet as : the first in the chain, or put one GFI outlet in each box. : : All of them work, but this is my opinion. : : Put one GFI in each box. First off, you DO NOT want a GFI knocking : out your refrigerator or freezer, just because the toaster developed a : problem. Secondly, if you daisy chain GFI's, you got to figure out : which item caused the problem and sometimes go to another location to : reset it. It costs a few bucks more to put individual GFIs in each : box, but it makes life much easier, particularly if you have a wife or : others that are technically challenged. If the GFI pops in one : outlet, you KNOW the problem is in whatever is hooked to THAT outlet, : and your coffeepot wont stop working which is plugged into another : outlet because the toaster went bad on the other end of the counter. : : Mark

At first, that sounded like a good idea albeit a little expensive, but the more I thought about it... I went out and grabbed two of my extension cord gfci's, plugged one into the other, and then plugged a power strip into that which I knew beforehand would trip a gfci. I think the reason the power strip trips the gfci's is because an MOV inside is leaking - to all appearances it works fine except it trips a gfci. Tested each one by pressing the Test button, so far so good. Then I turned on the power strip: Guess what? It tripped both gfci's. So, to make that work, you'd have to have a separate power run to EACH gfci in the chain, and that's a pretty big bundle of wiring. I suspect how many gfci's would trip would depend on the speed of the cktry in it, and how strong the current flow was, but ... you're left with multiple units opened in that scenario. Or did you forget to mention something simple? Or am I missing something?

Pop

[maradcliff]

First off, GFIs are around $10 each these days, so the cost is not all that huge.

Second, You ARE missing something..... You DO NOT use the "GFI out" to the next outlet. (or chain them together) You use the DIRECT power each and every outlet.

To further explain.

You have two wires coming from your breaker box into an outlet. Then there are two wires going to the next outlet (both are a black and a white OR hot and neutral) (((note, I am not including the ground wire since that just goes to the metal box or is nutted together))).

OK, in that outlet box, take the two white wires, along with an additional 6 inch piece of white wire, and wirenut those 3 pieces of white wire together. Next, do the same thing with the black wires.

Those two pieces of 6" wire that you just added, go to the GFI.

Do this same thing in EACH box.

I hope this is clear!

What you were doing was wiring your GFIs in series. You want each GFI connected to the SOURCE wires (right from your breaker box).

It's really not that complicated. Those GFIs come with the "out" terminals taped. Do not remove the tape or use those screws under the tape.

PS. Open that power strip if it has screws and look for a short to ground. If not, the MOV has probably done it's job and fried from a surge. If that is the case, that MOV will no longer protect your equipment. Get a new power strip to protect your stuff. However, I'd just remove the defective MOV and use the power strip for something that done need protection. I would tend to put a label on it which says "NO Surge Protection".

Mark

[mm]

So why not just put in a GFI circuit breaker? Then you can probably easily connect the bathroom and the outside receptacles too.

And you wont' have to figure out which is the first outlet in the circuit.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.

[mm]

btw, I think this partly depends on how much time you have. I think I have only tripped the GFI breaker because of a bad ground once, or maybe twice, in the last 22 years. Any other trips were real shorts, because of my bad patches to the outside extension cord..

When the house was about 7 years old, I got a lot of trips, and eventually I became certain that some weren't shorts OR bad grounds. So I bought a new breaker and all the problems went away. The new breaker is 19 years old now, with no problems.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you plan, just that a GFI circuit breaker works fine for me.

Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let me know if you have posted also.

[sleepdog]

Do yourself a favor and spend $30-$60 on a residential NEC how-to book to get your kitchen up to 2005 code. Your town inspector will smile.