GFCI vs appliance manufacturers -previously elec code Q

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In an earlier thread I stated I needed to add some circuits in the basement and several replied that by code they need to be GFI. Several of the major appliance manufacturers, including GE, Amana etc do not recommend running their appliances on a GFI, just a standard grounded outlet. I'm relocating a washer and dryer. GFCI or not?
Thanks
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Joe J wrote:

Washer and dryer, use a GFCI. (I assume it's a gas dryer)
Refrigerator or freezer, no GFCI (but you may need to use a single receptacle instead of a duplex so you can claim it's a dedicated special-use receptacle.)
Bob
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The dedicated receptacle exception to the requirement for GFCIs in unfinished basements has been eliminated in the current version of the NEC (2008). Current leakage standards for appliances have also been tightened, and new refrigerators or freezers should not trip a GFCI. If a new appliance trips a normal GFCI, the appliance is defective.
As for using older appliances, that presents a problem. :-) I guess if your old appliance has a leakage current of more than 5ma, then you can't use it in an unfinished basement in an NEC-compliant fashion.
Cheers, Wayne
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Wayne Whitney wrote:

Suppose one was to carpet the area where the washer and dryer sit. Maybe at least 3' or 4' around the washer and dryer. Compliant?
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On 06/01/2010 09:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

Probably not, because they'd still be next to the deep sink.
nate
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"Finished" is not defined in the NEC, so it is pretty subjective and up to you and your inspector to figure out.
Wayne
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There is no exception to the GFCI requirement for outlets in "unfinished" parts of a basement. If the manufacturer recommends the appliance not be GFCI protected, I wouldn't put them in the basement. I have never seen such documentation though. Have you actually seen this written somewhere other than bloggers opinions ?
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Here was one
http://www.applianceaid.com/gfi_plugs.html
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On Tuesday, June 1, 2010 9:46:53 PM UTC-4, Joe J wrote:

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RE: The quotes from manufacturers linked above at applianceaid.com, the one for Amana appears legit, as I searched the text and found it on the Amana official website at http://www.amana.com/content.jsp?pageName=HT-RG-Usage -5. As for the GE quote, I can't find it except in forums echo-chambers. Cl osest I've gotten is a forum poster who suggests they heard it first-hand f rom GE, but the trail runs cold there, so far.
I'm trying to find GE claiming GFCI's are bad for their appliances. It's ju st about impossible to install a dryer in a location that doesn't require G FCI protection. 6' from a sink edge. Bam! Basement or garage: Bam! Even if none of those applies, all the conditions that apply for GFCI and make them a good idea in a kitchen or bathroom or basement, apply at least as much i n a laundry.
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Hi For me any thing with electrical motor is bad to connect to GFCI. Motor start surge will trip it which is not nice. Ouir laundry pair is located in the basement utility room next to wash tub. No GFCI.
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On Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:36:16 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:


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ne for Amana appears legit, as I searched the text and found it on the Aman a official website at http://www.amana.com/content.jsp?pageName=HT-RG-Usa ge-5. As for the GE quote, I can't find it except in forums echo-chambers. Closest I've gotten is a forum poster who suggests they heard it first-hand from GE, but the trail runs cold there, so far.

just about impossible to install a dryer in a location that doesn't require GFCI protection. 6' from a sink edge. Bam! Basement or garage: Bam! Even i f none of those applies, all the conditions that apply for GFCI and make th em a good idea in a kitchen or bathroom or basement, apply at least as much in a laundry.
Those alleged quotes have no link so you can check them. Wherever they came from, they are obviously written by people with little technical knowledge, as there is nothing there that really explains much of anything:
"Thank you for contacting Electrolux Home Products. We do not recommend the use of GFI outlets as they can go bad and cause loss of power to an applia nce."
I wouldn't use one on a fridge/freezer, because GFCIs can sometimes falsely trip. It's rare, but sometimes they do for unknown reasons. But I agree with Gfre, if you plug a fridge in and it trips the GFCI all the time, something is wrong.
"Some appliance components could create enough resistance to trip the GFI o utlet during normal use."
Total nonsense and whoever wrote that is an idiot. In fact, it sounds like all of this was written by some summer intern in response to someone asking a question.
"The spark igniter on a gas range will cause the GFCI to trip."
I'm not familiar with how a spark ignitor actually works, but it sounds very odd to me that line current would be diverted to ground. I would think they would use a transformer to generate the spark high voltage, in which case there should be no line current flowing to ground to trip the GFCI.
One thing that even this crappy advice doesn't say is that using a GFCI will damage the appliance. If you have one on a freezer and it falsely trips and no one notices it for days, then you would have a problem. If I had to speculate, I'd wonder if one reason appliance manufacturers don't want them on anything is that when a GFCI trips, even for a valid reason, then dummies find out that their microwave, whatever, doesn't work and call their help line. No GFCI, less calls.
It's also obvious that their recommendations are inconsistent with using countertop appliances in homes built in the last 30+ years, as those receptacles must be GFCI protected. The fact that people are using microwaves, blenders, food processors, mixers, etc pretty much shows that GFCIs do work with appliances.
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Joe J wrote:

Hi, For me, no. Both have inductive load(motor, heating elemnt), GFCI may trip from now and then which will be nuisance.
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Tony Hwang wrote:

The current at both ends of and inductor is the same. The major problem that I have heard of is "leakage". The UL test is now 0.5mA or lower leakage.
The NEC used to have exceptions to GFCI requirements for refrigerators. As Wayne and RBM said, the exceptions are now gone. The code making panels don't think there is a problem. Maybe Joe should ask manufacturers why their appliances wouldn't work.
Plug-in 15/20A refrigeration in commercial kitchens is required to be GFCI protected.
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Some states like Oregon have amendments to the NEC where you can use a regular outlet for things like a refrigerator or freezer in a garage or basement. I don't know if this includes a washer?
But anyway check with your local electrical inspector. Local areas can make changes / amendments to the national code...
"Joe J" wrote in message

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"Surges," etc. don't cause a GFCI to trip.
Yeah, it's that simple.
Some appliances are expected to have higher than usual "leakage" to ground.
Among those are: toasters, washing machines, & dish washers. Yet each and all of these shouldn't trip a GFCI when there aren't any leaks.
Older fridges sometimes permitted water to contact the defrost heaters during defrost.
BUT properly working appliance with a "ground pin" in the cord or that are deliberately grounded shouldn't cause a GFCI to trip.
If you have an old freezer or ice box you keep in the garage or some other place where you don't check it every day, you SHOULD put it one a GFCI but you also should install some kind of alarm when the appliance fails to maintain temperature.
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On Wed, 30 Apr 2014 17:36:16 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

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wrote:

There is no reason why a motor should trip a GFCI if it is not bad.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Hi, Any inductivre load will cause surge current.
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wrote:

So? The GFCI only compares the current going out with the current coming back. If they are equal, the GFCI does not trip. When you have an internal short in the motor (usually a motor compressor like a fridge) the GFCI trips ... like it is supposed to.
I guarantee, if you have a fridge that is tripping a GFCI, and you put a current probe on the ground wire from that fridge, it will show leakage current there. You might not see it on a clamp on ammeter since it only needs to be 5ma and most are not that sensitive. Use a scope and you will see it.
That is also one of the reasons why an old fridge starts using more power and why the freon will smell burned if you crack it open.
We know there must not be much of a problem with motorized hand tools since every legal job site has GFCI on all of the circuits All commercial refrigeration that is cord and plug connected is on GFCI now too.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Hi, Simply are you saying inductive load when power is applied is not causing momentary spikes? That is the cause of trip. Yes, I have a dual trace Tek storage scope good for catching pulses down to nano seconds. Most of time it gets by but I don't want even occasional trips. My kitchen sub panel is fed by GFCI breaker and the trip does happen from now and then. Depending time of the day and what's running in the kitchen at the moment.
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