GFCI outlet question.

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re: "You asked why it passed inspection and I answered"
Would care to point out in which post I asked why it passed inspection?
I've checked my previous posts and I can't seem to find that question anywhere.
re: "Then what WAS your point ???"
What exactly is the thought process behind using 3 question marks when typing a question? Is that the written equivalent of saying "So are ya going to answer? Well, are ya? Huh? Are ya?
In any case, my point was that even though my house - being grandfathered, just like yours - doesn't *require* GFCI's where they would be in a newer house, everywhere the code would require one today, you will find one.
re: The GFCI extension cord "...since you had that contraption already out and in the way, what did you expect ???
There are those pesky questions marks again...maybe you need to get your keyboard cleaned.
You know, I don't recall you being at any of those jobs sites so how about you don't try to tell me what and why something happened?
Jesh , are you a natural born asshole or is that something you have to work at ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
LOL..Seriously though.. you need to stay on your meds...You insinuated his outlets weren't up to code by looking at his picture...I responded it was grandfathered like mine are..I never said I was at your jobsite to look at your ingenious invention , I just said at the jobsites I'm on I and others hook up at the closest outlet which meant that it MIGHT not have anything to do with your little contraption..Sorry if I hurt your feelings...Need a hug??LOL
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A fine job at weasel wording your way out of all the errors in your previous post.
Next.
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Hide quoted text -

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
A fine job at weasel wording your way out of all the errors in your previous post.
Next.
LOL.My errors ?.You crack me up...But thanks I guess...
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...Snip...

Sometimes I don't know why I bother. I guess the part of me that wants to help my fellow man just takes over.
re: "My errors ?"
First, thank you for the use of the single question mark. That alone improves the readability of your posts immensely.
Now, to avoid wasting too much more of our time, I'll point out 1 error - which you corrected yourself - and leave the rest for you to find.
In an earlier post you said, "You asked why it passed inspection and I answered."
When I requested that you show me where I asked that question, you responded with, "You insinuated his outlets weren't up to code…"
To "insinuate" is not to "ask". It would be hard to argue that you didn’t make an error when you said "You asked...".
So, as long as we agree that you were in error by making that statement, it shouldn't be too hard for you to find the other errors in the assumptions you made about my point. As I said, I'll leave that up to you, because in the spirit of a.h.r, doing it yourself is a great learning experience.
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His outlets may have passed inspection when the wiring was originally inspected...
But he is now using the general purpose outlets in his garage for a use which has different code requirements and therefore needs to address this by running new circuits to provide adequate facilities for the new use...
~~ Evan
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There are alarms that will sound/alert you when freezer temperatures go above a temperature that you set. Set the freezer temperature for 25 - 30F and you will have some chance of saving everything in the freezer. SImilar operation for the fridge except set the temp at 38 - 40F. Much cheaper and easier, and you only have a couple of 9 V batteries to change every couple of years instead of throwing out a lot of food.
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snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote the following:

Pulling a wire for another circuit would require too much de-construction. The garage is at the end of the house and next to a foyer and family room which is also on a slab, and above the garage and family room are bedrooms.
--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
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No attic space ??? One circuit for an entire garage must be a PITA..I would try to find a way...Patching drywall isn't that hard or expensive....
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benick wrote the following:

Though three rooms? From the breaker box (on the NW basement wall) up through the living room wall to the lower attic rafters, 30' across the lower attic rafters to the upper attic, across the 30' upper attic rafters to the opposite end of the house (it is against the elect code to tack exposed wire on the rafter ends, unless it is covered by conduit, or by drilling wiring holes through the rafters), then down through the bedroom wall, then the foyer wall below the BR, then through the foyer wall to the garage.
--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
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"(it is against the elect code to tack exposed wire on the rafter ends, unless it is covered by conduit, or by drilling wiring holes through the rafters),
It is ??? Perhaps somebody will check on that cuz I see it in new residential construction all the time here in Maine...Sounds like a pretty clean run compared to some I've seen....LOL...
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Why not fix the root cause of the problem and upgrade the circuit to handle the max load or split the circuit, one for each appliance?
Even if I didn't have an overload situation, I don't think I'd want multiple food storage appliances on one circuit. The loss potential is far greater than if they were on separate circuits.
I don't know your house layout or panel capacity, but it seems to me that pulling one more 15 or 20 amp circuit to the garage would be well worth the effort.
BTDT
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I agree that the first thing I'd focus on is finding out what the root cause of the tripping is. I would be very concerned about that if it were my house. It coud be anything from an overload, to a bad breaker, to an undetected short somewhere that could one day burn down the house.
He could start by figuring out what the total load is on the circuit. A Kill-a-Watt would be useful. If it turns out a freezer is using a lot of energy, the best solution might be to get a new one. A new fridge or freezer could use half the electricity of a 25 year old one, fix the tripping problem and pay for itself in a few years. Also, if it trips from the starting current of the fridge, one of the time delay breakers may solve the problem.
Should also check the wiring gauge and breaker size. There is probably some small chance that it has 12gauge with a 15amp breaker. If it's all 12 he could go to a 20 amp.
I'd also get GFCIs on the outlets that make sense, eg the outdoor ones.

Another possibility might be to move just one of the outlets used for the fridge to another circuit. For example, if there is another circuit used in the house that happens to be nearby on the other side of a wall, easily accessible in an attic, etc, that might not be that hard to do.
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On Feb 4, 8:29 am, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Ummm... NOOOO.... He can't... If the circuit is running to the opposite end of the house from the circuit breaker panel, then #12 wire is needed for a 15amp circuit instead of the normal #14 wire because of the length of the circuit... To do what you suggest would require that the circuit in question be wired with #10 size wire...

Again... NOOOO... Refrigerators are required to have their own dedicated branch circuit because they are high load appliances...
~~ Evan
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willshak wrote:

Circuit breakers stop current when an overload is detected, but GFCIs stop current when an imbalance of current is detected, indicating leakage of some current to ground. GFCIs are never current overload protectors, but there are combination breaker-GFCI devices that fit in breaker boxes. If your circuit breaker is tripping, then either it's bad or you have a serious problem with one of the devices on the circuit or in the wiring itself (short between neutral and hot or between hot and neutral). But if your GFCI is tripping, the problem could be electrical noise from a motor, which a hash filter (low pass filter - this is not the same as a surge protector) may eliminate, or you have a slight short in your wiring. GFCIs are designed to minimize false tripping through a time delay that varies with the amount of leakage current detected, from about 10 seconds for less than 0.01A of leakage to 40 milliseconds for leakage in excess of 0.1A, but some are more sensitive to line noise than others, especially older designs.
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Wow... Sounds like a fire waiting to happen... Refrigerators are required by code to have their own circuit... How large is the chest freezer ??? A large one should also have its own circuit...
The fact that everything in your garage is fed on one circuit and dies when both the refrigerator and chest freezer both try to kick on at the same time is ridiculous... I bet you have blown this by triggering the garage door a time or two also...
Even if there was such a thing as an outlet with a built in circuit breaker, that would not protect the wiring between the garage and the main breaker panel in the basement from frying even if each outlet was only trying to draw 15 amps and not tripping its own breaker...
Think outside the box here Bill... If it would be such giant pain in the ass to run the additional circuits INSIDE the house, why not run them in a full metal conduit OUTSIDE along the perimeter of your foundation in a trench... Come out of the basement with an LB fitting pointing down towards the ground, dig a trench from that spot all the way around the OUTSIDE perimeter of your house below the frost line in an area where it won't be disturbed by digging in your planting beds or gardens in the future to the outside wall of the garage and install an LB fitting to bring it inside the garage...
The materials will cost a bit more than pulling romex wiring inside the house, but it will be a lot less of a pain in the ass in a much more easily accessible area...
Running a conduit would also allow you to install more than one circuit which would solve your problems permanently...
~~ Evan
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Wrong, at least in the USA, unless local authorities have adopted regulations that exceed the NEC. And even if code did require it today, he has an existing garage which isn't required to be brought up to current code .

Even a large chest freezer doesn't pull that many amps, especially new ones which are high efficiency. It could be a good idea to have one on a seperate circuit to reduce trips from other loads ruining the food.

Or he could find out what the total loads are on the circuit now with a simple kill-a-watt meter. Then decide if
a - the loads are not the problem and there is a possible short
b - one of the freezers is using 2X what a new one would. In that case the simple solution is to get a new freezer, which will pay for itself in energy savings and reduce the load.
c - possibly move some loads from this circuit to a nearby circuit that is not as fully loaded. This could possibly be done with minimal re-wiring
d - run an additional circuit for the freezer/fridges
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On Feb 20, 7:35 am, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

You are correct in that it is not an NEC requirement for such a dedicated circuit, but it is in my state and we don't run into these issues because of that additional requirement...
There is nothing in the electrical code to prevent someone from using COMMON SENSE and installing facilities which will PREVENT PROBLEMS which are MORE than the minimum standards for safety which the code requires...
You are incorrect that "an existing garage isn't required to be brought up to code" because when you change the use of a receptacle from "general purpose" to something specific like a major appliance, you have now changed how that circuit is being used and you need to upgrade your facilities to accommodate that change in use...

It is not the constant operating load which causes the problems, it is the heavy amperage pull when refrigeration equipment starts up which makes things go wonky...

ROFL... Yes, the loads are a problem, given the length of the circuit run involved, a #14 wire under a full 15amp load running the full length of your house will cause the breaker to trip... You need to use the next larger size of wire for longer runs to prevent this problem...

Right, until some part within the refrigerator or new chest freezer wears out and that new freezer begins to draw twice the load on that circuit also... Then you are right back where you started from and you have spent the money on a new fridge/freezer that you should have spent running new circuits to feed the old one which was still perfectly fine...

Umm... No... That is NOT a good idea because you will be putting that much more load on another circuit which might not have the available capacity to support that additional load...

This is the correct choice, as it solves the presenting problem without screwing around and creating new problems on another circuit...
~~ Evan
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Evan wrote:

It is not particularly useful to cite *requirements* for your state that are not the same as the NEC.

Cite - using the NEC.

It may be either running overload or starting current on top of running current from another unit. Circuit breakers a time delay to not trip on short starting currents.

Metal conduit in the earth?

>>

You don't know the length of the circuit.

Parts of refrigeration wear out and cause twice the load? Explain.

May or may not work, depending on what other circuits are around, as trader said.

Adding a circuit may or may not be easy. It may or may not be the most cost effective way of solving the problem.
I thought trader's answer was entirely reasonable.
--
bud--

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Since I don't have a copy of the current edition NEC book available to me, I will raise my specific concerns about the scenario which I know are addressed in the code someplace... I'll leave it up to you to look them up since you are the one who wants the code cites...
What is the square footage of the garage ??? General purpose power requirements for such a space based on its size alone won't support or account for the use of major appliances like a refrigerator or freezer as a "general purpose"... Then factor in that his outside receptacle and garage door opener are both powered by that circuit as well, it is my understanding that once he does any sort of work on that existing circuit ALL of it would have to comply with the current edition of the NEC in effect, wouldn't he have to divide off that outside receptacle and garage door opener to separate circuits anyways because its code to have a dedicated circuit not used by anything else for outside receptacles which don't power anything inside the house ??? SAME issue for garage door openers... Aren't those code issues that would need to be addressed if ANY modifications to the current circuit were made without consideration to the OP's issue with overloading the breaker ???
Given the load of the refrigerator AND the freezer AND the garage door opener AND the outside receptacle AND anything else he uses inside the garage (his air compressor for example) that sounds like it adds up to more than 1,440 watts which is 80% of the 1,800 watt maximum which a 15amp circuit can provide... Unless the code has radically changed in the past three editions, it sounds like the circuit should be left alone because changing it in any way would require several upgrades and changes to bring it into compliance with current codes...
It would be the most cost effective to run a new dedicated 20 amp appliance circuit for the refrigerator and chest freezer, as that solution to the problem removes from consideration any code issues with the uses the circuit currently feeds...

Right, except in this case, it seems as if too much is being fed from the circuit in question so that those short starting currents are happening at the same time too frequently... Therefore while the actual running load on the circuit may be within acceptable limits, the circuit is overloaded because of several appliances cycling on and off and therefore the circuit is not adequate anymore for the purposes it is being used for...

You don't either, but it has been stated in other posts in this thread that it is at the opposite end of the house from the main breaker panel and that it would require extensive routing to pull a new cable to that area from inside the house... One can deduce from that information that this circuit is among the longer, if not the longest run in the house and it is being used at or near full capacity... That information factors into selection of the wire size being used to power that circuit...

Yup... A defective defrost coil or one that goes bad will cause the refrigerator to suddenly use twice as much electricity in the period from when it goes bad until the time refrigerator itself eventually fails... And YES, it will fail if you do not become aware of this problem and repair it, as the compressor has to work harder to provide the same amount of cooling as it was before and it will wear out much faster... I guess the NEC doesn't give you much useful information about appliance diagnosis or repair...

Ah, but that would bring that circuit that you are intending to tap into to shed some of the load off the overtaxed garage to split loads off onto into play as "being worked on" and now in the scope of new work... So current NEC load calculations, square footages of the space(s) it is serving and many other code items would now come into consideration when making any new alterations on those existing circuits...
That is why someone who knows what they are doing and isn't merely concerned with what bare minimum they can get by with doing under the code would bring a new circuit to feed the two high consumption appliance loads in the garage to permanently solve the problem and not fix it until some other change in the way the house is used in the future (i.e. rearranging the furniture in the living/family room where you tap into the circuit to feed the refrigerator in the garage and have an expensive home entertainment system now running off that circuit as well) causes issues which must be identified and dealt with at that later time...

If adding another circuit was off the OP's radar then he would not have gone into detail of describing his potential plans for routing another new branch circuit wire to the garage from inside the house...
What is cost effective is that which solves the problem in the longest term without creating new issues in the future... If the OP followed the advice about splitting the load onto an existing nearby circuit and that circuit was in a bedroom or family/living room with expensive electronics being fed from it the fluctuations in power from the normal cycling of the refrigerator and chest freezer can cause expensive damage to television sets and computers... Knowing this, why would you offer advice on fixing the OP's immediate problem which could damage his expensive home electronics later on if they end up getting plugged into the wrong circuit because it is shared with a high current drawing refrigeration appliance ???
So regurgitating the NEC at me/the others in this thread in no way abates good thoughtful advice which exceeds the minimum requirements in the code when a bit of common sense is taken into account for the new ways in which the formerly general purpose receptacles in the garage are now being used for...

~~ Evan
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You miss the point rather badly in two respects:
First, you're the one who made the claim that this is required by Code, so it's up to you to back it up -- not up to him to show that you're wrong.
Second, how do you propose that he prove something is *not* in the Code? To illustrate the point, I assert that the requirement you claim exists is in fact not in the Code, and here's my proof: http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/7008SB
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