GFCI Circuit protection question-outdoor wiring

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OK complicasted question, maybe...
I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated circuits.
1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this circuit. Easy enough...
BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help c
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If you didn't already by the wire I would run it in conduit. And for the GFCI question, you can buy GFCI breakers if your coming from the panel.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

well cant find GFCI breakers for my panel. Looked online and at -some- stomres, although I havent had the opportunity to visit specialty stores. And if I dont need them, I dont want to use them, since they are VERY expensive for a dual 20A GFCI. As far as conduit goes, I have toyed with theidea, but everything else I have read, and everyone I have talked to, says it just isnt necessary. Even the book I have that is all about "above code" just says bury them 2ft insteat of 1ft. Conduit makes it a PITA more than it already is.
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use a regular breaker and wire the outside cable via a GCI outlet
My outdoor light is GFCI protected by an outlet in the garage
Mark
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Does your code book say anything about running two feeders to one structure? Generally not a good idea for several reasons including more expensive. One adequate sized feeder and a sub-panel would be much preferable. If your heater is in an area with plumbing, concrete, dampness or other possible ground sources it should be protected by a GFCI breaker. Approved direct burial cable is available and some but not all codes permit its use without further protection. In the long run it is always best to follow your local codes and your inspectors advice. A non-conforming electrical installation has few advantages and can be a significant liability. Don Young
wrote:

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Don Young wrote:

Well I am not certain about local codes. I guess I better check. My goal was not to skirt code, but to follow it. as I said in the above psot:
I suppose code could be different here (in seattle) but I dont really know. Guess I better check on it.
I guess my choices are
-keep it the same and not worry about it (what is the harm in having two circuits off the main panel? -change the heater to 120V, deal with smaller heating capacity, and use the two wires I have already started running (they are not underground) to one dual 20A circuit -change the wiring to 10/3 w/g and run a 30A subpanel, wasting the $44 I spent on 250ft of 12/2 w/g and the time under the house. However this is definately not a cheaper option than 12/2 with two circuits, even if I hadnt purchased the 12/2 already
or I supppose I could run it as is, and change it ater if needed. I guess i should run conduit so I could pull 10/3 out if I need later
dunno what's best
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I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed need to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel in the shed

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RBM wrote:

All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the GFCI outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.
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If you decide to connect your heater with a cord and outlet, even 240 volt, it will require GFCI protection as well

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RBM wrote:

Yeah well, the heater will be hard-wired in, not on an outlet. I dont think it will sepcificaly require GFCI, but I am not sure. I guess this issue is that accessory structures may be limited in general to one breaker off the main panel, which is the problem now, since I want a 240V heater (not 120) and so need either two lines/breakers, or a sub-panel. I had orignially been considering a subpanel, but was steered away from that idea by some people. I suppose code could be different here (in seattle) but I dont really know. Guess I better check on it.
I guess my choices are
-keep it the same and not worry about it (what is the harm in having two circuits off the main panel? -change the heater to 120V, deal with smaller heating capacity, and use the two wires I have already started running (they are not underground) to one dual 20A circuit -change the wiring to 10/3 w/g and run a 30A subpanel, wasting the $44 I spent on 250ft of 12/2 w/g and the time under the house
dunno what sbest

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If the heater is hard wired, it doesn't need GFCI protection (NEC)

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On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:27:54 -0400, "RBM" <rbm2(remove

210.8(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.
Note "125v 15 and 20a receptacles".
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-- Tom Horne
Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to. We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you. -- Tom Horne
Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to. We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.>>RBM wrote:

Would you mind quoting chapter and verse for the code language you believe requires GFCI protection for 240 volt cord and plug conneccted devices? -- Tom Horne
"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
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chester wrote:

to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel in the shed

will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this circuit. Easy enough...

heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help

Running two branch circuits between buildings is a violation of "225.30 Number of Supplies. Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure served that is on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by one feeder or branch circuit..." This provision of the US NEC is meant to prevent elecctrical accident caused by multiple sources of current to a buiding.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
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wrote:

The rule is you can only run one circuit or feeder to a second building. You will either be stuck with a sub panel (ground rods, disconnect etc) or you could run a 20a 240v (3 wire + ground) circuit and split it out into 2 multiwire 120v circuuits that also share the 250v load (hold your nose legal) and use GFCI receptacles in the shed. That will limit you to about 11a per 120v circuit since your heater pulls 8.3. If you just want a light and some occasional power tool use that may be fine. The heater and lights do not need to be GFCI but a direct bury cable would have to be 24" down. Wire in conduit can be 18". 120v 15 or 20a GFCI protected circuits can be 12" down Frost heaving might make all this moot anyway. You might need to be below the frost line. I don't know much about things that happen below freezing.
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I appreciate the input. I admit I didnt know about this rule. You got me stressd out a bit, so I actually found the NEC online. It doesn't let you cut and paste, but basically, rule 225.30 states that there is only to be one feeder or brnach circuit to each structure on a property, "unless permitted in 225.30(A)though(E). Subsection (D) states that "Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or pahses or for different uses such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations."
This would seem to apply to me, since I need 120V and 240V. I feel much more comfortable using two feeder circuits for my applications than using a multiwire branch circuit and running 120V and 240V off that same circuit, as you mentioned (I didnt know this was possible, but I guess it is always an option). Thanks.
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I don't understand the resistance to running a 3-wire, 240V, 50A run to a sub-panel, and dropping a local ground.
Why put so much thought and effort into finding a safe, legal way to do it wrong?
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Goedjn wrote:

Well, mostly becasue I already spent $ on the 12/2 w/g wire. I will waste $45, which isnt a big deal, and about 2-3 hours in labor.
I am stillthnking subpanel, but was thinking just a 30A, using 10/3 w/g. I would think that would be sufficient for my needs, but I guess it will not give me any expandabilityy. Waht wire for 50A? 8awg?
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You can use much of the 12-AWG for wiring inside the shed, so it's not a total loss. you said somewhere that the run was around 70', so I think that 8AWG wire will get you 40A (well, 46, but I don't think they make 45A breakers) Anyway, a 40-Amp 2-pole breaker gets you a nominal 9600 watts, to divide up into 240V and 120V circuts however you want.
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Goedjn wrote

OK OK I have decided to run a subpanel. BUT cripes, while the subpanels are cheap, man, 8/3 AWG is PRICY. OK so using substantially cheaper 10/3 AWG gives me a 30A subpanel. I would think this would be sufficient: 2000W heater, plus antoher 1000W for outlets and such, gives me ~15A, assuming full useage? 30A seems like it would be sufficient, and a LOT cheaper. Comments? thx
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