GFCI

===> A GFCI, one which is built to NA standards as requied by law, monitors the difference in current between the hot and the neutral wires. Whenever that current varies too much, I think it's about ten milliamps, the thing trips and turns off the power. IMO, he was given a glib, and wrong, response by that person.

===> It would be fairly rare in any instance, but moreso as you indicated. By the time a spike makes it through the transformer on the pole, and all the inductance in that xfmr, there isn't much of it left for the house wiring, which in turn has a substantial sinking ability due to the things plugged into it. I'd be willing to bet money that no transient was at work in this picture; it just doesn't fit the anecdotal evidence.

Since the original

===> Now, that's a distinct possibility. In fact, I mentioned it in a post a few minutes back that I'd neglected to consider that. If that's the case, then there was an obvious reason for it tripping that anyone worth their salt could have asked about, instead of just that "they do that".

Umm, no, not really. High frequencies first of all wouldn't make it thru the network into the home wiring and if it was powerful enough to make it thru via arccing or whatever in the xfmr, it's not "noise". There is a lot of "noise" on any of those power lines; it's the design of the lines that protects it from getting into the houses. Else, anyone with a modem could pick off the billing information, all kinds of data that are also flowing up and down those wires. Any signals on those wires cancel themselves and anything left is further reduced by the turns ration in the transformers. There is even a reason for the spacing between power lines, in fact, that comes into play. You can only decode data AT th epower lines termination points. By design, any outside noise is also going to be horizontally applied, and will again be self-damped. It's called longitudinal balance. I used to work on that kind of equipment. It's interesting stuff, actually, since few people know it's there. Electrical and gas consumption billing are two typical applications and anything from lightning to the sun can induce noise into the lines, but due to design, it's reduced to the point where it has no afffect on things.

===> You cannot say that. The gfci tripped, and the reason isn't known. You can not know whether there would be a dangerous fault or not if the GFCI hadn't been there.

===> Like I said, that's possible, but very unlikely to be the problem, given the information available so far in this post. Since we're now going into empirical, anecdotal eveidence, I have a GFCI on my pool pump, too, because I also run the pool lights from it. Then that receptacle goes off to another receptacle/switch, which is used for the yard lighting. It has NEVER tripped before, during, or after a storm. The only time it's ever tripped was when I pressed the test switch, or stuck a resistor between the conduit and the receptacle. There are some valid reasons why some of the larger horsepower motors will cause them to trip, but it's not the noise generated. It's the pase shift caused by the inductance in the motors, especially when they're capacitor starts instead of clutch-started. Either way, the currents in the live/neutral vary sufficiently for the GFCI to detect the current difference, and thus it trips. I recall the last one I bought, a portable, had a reaction time in the micro-second range; that's pretty fast when you consider you're working with a period of what, about 16 mS on 60 Hz? I don't think any of that's relevant to the OP's situation.

However, I DO think your comment about something plugged in at the time of the rain or, whenever the thing opened, is important, since it wasn't specifically noted one way or the other by the OP. That installer sounds either incompetent or sort of, uhh, dishonest and doesn't care since he came up with "they do that".

Cheers,

PopS

Reply to
Pop
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If it does it ONCE, and you don't see an obvious reason for it, chalk it up as an aberration. if it KEEPS tripping, then you have a problem.

Reply to
Goedjn

Sorry, I had three thoughts in my head when I posted - I meant to somehow convey the idea that if the GFCI was tripping like once in a blue moon (once a year, technically), and the electrical work was done by a licensed electrician, then personally I would not worry about it. Problem is the OP would not know the answer so the whole line of reasoning is basically unhelpful.

If the sucker's tripping once a month for example then that is not good, the contractor needs to look at it.

Reply to
roger61611

The 2005 NEC requires GFCIs on 15 & 20 amp outlets in "commercial kitchens". This appears to include refrigerators. (Electricians in a code refresher class thought it was a dumb idea.)

Bud--

Reply to
Bud

NO, you had the problem the first time, too, but chose to ignore the possibility that a problem was there. Not a wise decision in most cases, with best case being it's a negligible problem.

Reply to
Pop

Hey, we've all been there! I always opine that if I just had a photographic memory ...

PopS

Reply to
Pop

I bought some indoor GFIC outlets from Home Depot and some of them were way too touchy. They'd trip when plugging in a turned-off appliance. I'd replace it with another of the same brand and it would work. OSH carried the same model, so not trying to flame HD. And I didn't have any ground in those outlets, maybe that makes them more sensitive.

Reply to
jjj_soper

According to :

I'd be suspicious of the appliance.

Okay, intermittent (or close to marginal) medium resistance hot-case short.

Really.

What's the brand? Perhaps it's a true fly-by-night with poor quality control, but with HD I doubt it.

Won't make any difference.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

I agree they don't "just do that"

unless the GFIC itself was defective.

it was a BS answer in any case, from someone who sounds like they are underqualified/ignorant or just lazy.

doesn't surprise me, as often times contractors/tradesmen are terribly underqualified, like HVAC men, for example, an awful bunch of incompetent rednecks, for the most part.

can't tell you how many I have heard tell a homeowner that an A/C system or heat pump just needs a shot of freon every year or two, but also tell them there is no leak.

well find the damn leak, idiot, the freon just doesn't disappear into thin air! It ain't like a car that just "uses some oil"

want to stump an HVAC man, ask him how the same freon that is room temperature in that tank over there can make you cold in the summer, yet warm in the winter

not saying that there is no HVAC tech that can answer this, just saying that most can't, and that is pathetic

as far as I am concerned, HVAC techs should be REQUIRED to pass a college level thermodynamics course with an "A" before being granted a license.

I bet you over half the HVAC techs cannot, starting with the compressor, tell you each component the freon enters, in order, and complete the loop of naming components back to the compressor again, which is what they should have learned on their first day of school!

Reply to
cowboy

Could be, but the point was that it was not a ground _fault_ that was really happening.

Reply to
Calvin Henry-Cotnam

So why is so much money spent on surge suppressors? Without getting into the whole-house versus power bar argument, there is electrical noise that can effect electronic equipment in varying degrees.

GFCIs are among the effected, often enough that you should not use them on outlets powering refrigerators.

It does, moreso since the original poster mentioned that there were other loads downstream from the GFCI (the lights).

It would be a pretty rare occurance for a GFCI to trip off due to transients flowing strictly due to the inductive and capacitive load of the power line. I wouldn't say impossible, but think it is fair game to say I have a better chance of winning a lottery.

But with a load of a few lights, there is a somewhat greater possibility that noise might be "seen" by the GFCI as an imbalance.

True. Unfortunately, there seems to be a common attitude of many professionals to give such a terse answer to people outside their profession.

Reply to
Calvin Henry-Cotnam

GFCIs are subject to nuisance trips. As a practical mater, the electrician is likely to find nothing, and depending on what is downstream from the GFCI they may spend a lot of time finding nothing. Seems to me it is entirely reasonable to see if the trip reoccurs.

Bud--

Reply to
Bud

Leviton smart lock GFIC Two outlets gave me trouble in two rooms with different appliances. I replaced them with new ones of the same brand and they worked great.

I thought GFICs tended to have quality problems which is why you should test them periodically?

Reply to
jjj_soper

Good marketing. I dont have any 'intentional' surge surpressors in my house. Not to mention that 99% of surge supressors can absorb a max surge the size of a static shock from a rug...

Devices themselves are more robust these days and small surges wont do much. Especially to electronic equipment.

There is also the question of where the spike originated. Inductive loads like refrigerators and vacuum cleaners, A/C units (especially when faulty) can throw spikes on the line which originate inside the house/transformer. i have still not seen any trippage of my GFCI. But in my old house the voltage drop would induce my battery backup to kick in briefly.

Isint this contrary to your statement about refrigerators which are an inductive load?

Reply to
CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert

I would agree, but since this was just put in, by that time it'll cost to pay someone to do it. Since this was apparently just done, the installer at least needed to be put on notice so he could fix it later if that's how it turns out.

Besides, apparently it turned out the guy had light/s plugged into it at the time, so there probably nothing wrong at the gfci anyway

- certainly though, the installer should have told the OP about that, not just said "they do that".

Reply to
Pop

No, it's not Q problems per-se. GFI's have mechanical contactors, and electronics. The contactors can burn out or stick, and the electronics can (very occasionally) fry. If it sticks, you have a false sense of security...

You may have had two marginal units, but from Leviton, I'm surprised.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

No, the "inductive and capacitive load of the power line" that I was speaking of is strictly that: of the power line.

When you apply AC power to a pair of wires with no load at the other end, there will be a small current flowing in that wire, mostly due to the capacitive effect of the wire. The inductive effects generally don't come into play until you try to disconnect those wires and a tiny bit of arcing may be seen.

This effect can be noticed, albeit very tiny, when a branch circuit with nothing on it is disconnected from the power source. I have seen this effect quite dramatically when a substation was being disconnected from its source -- after the load is shut off, then the disconnects are opened at the top of the substation, the power company then had a guy in a cherry picker disconnect the wires at the pole. With about 50' of wires connected to nothing at the far end, there is quite a visible and audible spark when those wires are disconnected from the supply (I don't recall the voltage, but it was at least 4600 and not likely over 16,000).

Getting back to my point, with only the effects of a non-loaded cable on a GFCI, I do not believe that it is likely that any transients can trip the GFCI. With a load on the cable downstream from the GFCI (lights or a refrigerator for instance), the odds improve significanty. Not that you will see it occuring on a weekly basis, but going from "practically never" to, say, 1 in 10000, is a significant increase.

Reply to
Calvin Henry-Cotnam

Maybe where you live -- but in Florida, power surges resulting from electrical storms are a major source of TV repairs and a specific profit center for our family TV repair business. I have everything in the house protected by surge suppressors and even at that a nearby lightning strike was strong enough to smoke the surge protector on my stereo power amplifier and the amplifier itself, although the plasma TV (on a different supressor) escaped unharmed. The manufacturer of the surge supressor pai me for a new power amplifier.

These aren't small surges, and electronics are, IMHO, getting MORE sensitive and more expensive, not less.

Neither of my two comments are related to GFCIs, but to the earlier poster's overall comments on power surges.

Reply to
World Traveler

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IEEE says if you want surge protection you must protect 2 of the three zones. Since the utility won't allow you to put one on their lines that will protect you. Your stuck with one at the service and one at the point of use. Doing your cable and telco is also a good idea.

I have seen lightning strikes that were 1/4 mile away fry every electronic ballast in a building.

The CEBMA curve is what the manufactures use to decribe tolerance to voltage spikes. No matter what you install nothing is bullet proof. Since most surge arrestors use MOV's to do the dirty work. I change them every other monsoon season. Cheaper than a new plasma tv and dealing with the manufactures for me.

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Reply to
SQLit

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