Generator "cross over" switch installation costs

[TomR]

I know very little about this topic, including what the correct terminology is. And, this is mostly just a curiosity question on my part.

But, I am curious as to what it roughly might cost for a typical gas station to have an electrician install a mechanism where if the power goes out in the neighborhood, a portable gas generator could be plugged in to the electrical system to power the station and keep the lights and cash registers on and pump gas to the public. I am not that interested in the cost of the actual generators for this purpose -- just the cost to have the electrical switch-over circuits installed and ready to be used if needed.

Why? -- because I am often amazed when there is a hurricane or other natural disaster that knocks the power out in a region, and thousands of people need gas to evacuate, plus emergency services vehicles need gas to operate during the disaster -- but the gas stations with tens of thousands of gallons of gas stored underground are all closed because they have no power to pump the gas that they have.

[Moe DeLoughan]

I'm amazed that some facilities in areas prone to storm surges or flooding place their emergency generators at or below grade. Storm hits, storage area, crawl space, or basement fills with water, and goodbye generator. Maybe that's what happens in a lot of cases with these gas stations. It happened with hospitals in New Orleans during Katrina.

[Ralph Mowery]

They can range from simple metal plates that are installed so you can not have the main breaker on while the breaker for the generator is on, to a seperate transfer panel.

The cost can be from less than $ 100 to $ 500 for the devices not counting the labor to install them. I wold guess the electrician would not charge more than $ 500 to $ 1500 for the more complicated systems. Probably less than $ 100 or minimum service call to install the interlock plate thing.

Here is a link to the interlock plate so you can see how simple it is. Almost anyone can install them.

[Ed Pawlowski]

I read that some states either have or are trying to pass laws that some stations must have generators. They were targeting the ones on main evacuation routes.

The problem that I see is that many of the stations are operated by small dealers and to spend $5000 to $10,000 for generation does not have a payback. It could if they were allowed to jack the price a buck when operating from generators.

[Pete C.]

They could increase the price some while on generator. Most states price gouging laws limit the increase rather than preventing any increase.

[TomR]

Thanks. I don't know what the typical gas station electric service setup would be -- meaning how many amps, whether single phase or 3-phase, etc.

[Ralph Mowery]

Depending on the size of the station ( just gas, or a full conviencience store) it could be a small ammount to just run a couple of pumps. Also they may want to go to just cash as many pumps will take a credit card and that service may be out during emergencies.

If I was going to do it, I would put 2 or 3 pumps on a cash only system and just power up the pumps, a few lights and only the bare minimum to run the station.

As someone else mentioned there may be problems with raising the prices during emergencies, but I would think they should make it a law they can go up 10 or 20 percent to pay for the extra cost to run the generators.

[Stormin Mormon]

They could increase the price some while on generator. Most states price gouging laws limit the increase rather than preventing any increase.

[Stormin Mormon]

Thanks. I don't know what the typical gas station electric service setup would be -- meaning how many amps, whether single phase or 3-phase, etc.

[trader4]

gas stations could charge a free market price for fuel during hurricanes, they would have incentive to put in generators. But no, and so everyone run s out of gas, and pushes the car to the side of the road. Thank you, govern ment, for making a disaster even worse than it needed to be.

[e-mail]...

You're absolutely right. Why would anyone load up a truck with generators and drive from Iowa to NJ to sell them, if they can't charge whatever they want for them? And it brings in more supply. If you encouraged that, more people would do it, there would be more coming in, more vendors to choose from, and the price would come down. Would I load up a truck and drive to a state where I thought I might be arrested? Hell no.

[Moe DeLoughan]

If I were a small gas station owner, I'd ask the local gov't to factor supplying the station with a generator into its disaster planning. Either permanently install it on site or have a plan in place to position one asap after a disaster/power outage. It's for the public good, so frankly, the public should shoulder at least some of the cost.

[TomR]

That's actually along the lines of what I was thinking.

My idea would involve some government interference in terms of certain mandates, combined with some governmental financial support to make it happen.

I don't know what the typical cost would be to put in place the needed generator "cross over" wiring for a small gas station or a larger multi-pump gas station with a convenience store (such as WaWa). But, let's say, for example that the cost is around $2,500 or less.

Then, make it a state law (my state is New Jersey) that all gas stations are required to have this type of stand-by generator "cross over" in place by a certain date. And, use disaster planning funds, or FEMA funds, or Homeland Security funds to guarantee low interest loans to each gas station to borrow the money to do the installation with maybe a 5 or 10 year payback. Yes, it would be a new cost for the gas station businesses, but it would cost them maybe $500/year for 5 years at the most. What they would get out of it is an asset. And, what the state would get out of it is an infrastructure improvement that would help better prepare the state for disasters.

[TomR]

P.S. I really would be interested in knowing roughly what such a generator "cross over" wiring installation might cost, and maybe how much power or what type of generator would later be required to power up both a smaller "regular" gas station and a larger multi-pump and convenience store gas station.

[TomR]

Oops, it looks like I may have found the answer to my own question by doing a Google search:

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Obviously, I am not the first person to think of this idea.

And, it looks like the cost for just the electrical hook-up could be big bucks:

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Like maybe up to $10,000 for the wiring hook-up.

[Ralph Mowery]

It could be where you are at and then the government money..

I don't see it taking anything like a day for an electrician to install a transfer switch. At $ 100 an hour that would be less than $ 1000. The switching gear should not run over $ 1000 for some of the best.

If the station is planning on running everything I can see where it may cost $ 40,000. If it is just for emergency operation, the cost should be way less. Just depending on the cost of the generator. A 25 kw unit will power lots of stuff and is less than $ 10,000.

[Pete C.]

A gas station is a facility that handles flammable fuels, most everything around them has to be done in an explosion proof manner. There will also be a physical separation issue that for some stations in tight areas may not even be possible. Additionally, commercial standby generators require additional permitting that residential ones don't.

My expectation is that installation of a backup generator for a typical gas station will total $25,000-$35,000 by the time everything is accounted for, including the fact that commercial grade backup generators cost a lot more than the cheap residential ones.

[CRNG]

On Tue, 16 Jul 2013 12:15:00 -0500, "Pete C." wrote in Re Re: Generator "cross over" switch installation costs:

So if that gas station is netting $0.05/gal of gas sold, how many gallons must be sold just to pay for that?

Would you spend that kind of $$ for that kind of profit margin?

[dennisgauge]

Because, if you were the victim of a disaster and "needed" a generator, and the only place to get one was off the back of a truck at 2-5 times the retail price, you'd be MAD AS HELL.

As soon as the storm subsided, you'd be waging a campaign to convince your politicians to make an anti-gouging law ASAP.

I don't care what side you think you belong to. It's not your fault that you weren't prepared. It's the generator seller's fault for taking advantage of your situation and price gouging. "There ought to be a law!" you'll cry.

[Stormin Mormon]

What a liberal! So, it's not your fault you live in hurricane country, and don't have a generator and stored gasoline? Where does it all end? Is the government going to pay my bills, wipe my nose, and raise everyone's children?

Because, if you were the victim of a disaster and "needed" a generator, and the only place to get one was off the back of a truck at 2-5 times the retail price, you'd be MAD AS HELL.

As soon as the storm subsided, you'd be waging a campaign to convince your politicians to make an anti-gouging law ASAP.

I don't care what side you think you belong to. It's not your fault that you weren't prepared. It's the generator seller's fault for taking advantage of your situation and price gouging. "There ought to be a law!" you'll cry.

[trader4]

No I wouldn't.

No I wouldn't. It's the misguided libs who don't understand economics and want more and more laws.

See above.