Gasoline Storage

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Pop wrote:

Do it like most small time farmers/ranchers. Fill a 55 gallon drum, that you can roll or raise to a convenient height (drum horizontal). You can even build a cage with an inner sliding part that you raise a foot at a time with a hydraulic car jack.
The drum would have a locking tap on the downside opening with the other opening up. Whenever you want gas you unscrew the top opening to allow air to enter, then fill whatever you want from the tap. Add a hose and get the barrel high enough and you can fill the vehicles. Probably want to use up all the extra gas and empty the empty the barrel once a year.
All those proper containers are a hazard. Much better and safer to store a large amount altogether in an air tight container.
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George E. Cawthon wrote:

fuel, some exiting engines could be fitted with the type of carburetor needed.
If that is not an option then next I would go with diesel as can be stored much safer.
However weather diesel or Gas, I would go with a more durable and larger container for keeping that amount on hand.
On our farm we used to have permanent tanks, We had to replace the tanks once and the supplier said would need to now have EPA approved installation, etc. We did not want to go through the expense of that. The supplier told us that anything not a permanent fixture would not necessarily need to be approved by the EPA. Many construction companies use portable tanks to take to job sites. So we got a small heavy duty trailer and mounted a small 100 Gal tank and then pulled down to the supplier to have filled instead of them coming out to us. Worked out better since when on one side of the property for a while we could take the tank with us.
May be an option, would still depend on laws in your area, May can get a 55 gal drum that would be adequate and strap down on a suitable utility trailer if you have means to tow somewhere to fill (Even the local gas station)
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: George E. Cawthon wrote: : > Pop wrote: : > : >> Hi, : >> : >> What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators? : >> ... : : On our farm we used to have permanent tanks, We had to replace the tanks : once and the supplier said would need to now have EPA approved : installation, etc. We did not want to go through the expense of that. : The supplier told us that anything not a permanent fixture would not : necessarily need to be approved by the EPA. Many construction companies : use portable tanks to take to job sites. So we got a small heavy duty : trailer and mounted a small 100 Gal tank and then pulled down to the : supplier to have filled instead of them coming out to us. Worked out : better since when on one side of the property for a while we could take : the tank with us. : : May be an option, would still depend on laws in your area, May can get a : 55 gal drum that would be adequate and strap down on a suitable utility : trailer if you have means to tow somewhere to fill (Even the local gas : station) :
Good brainstorming; thanks all. Looking like the drum idea is best and the one i understand the best so far. Can't haul it to be filled though 'cause around here they'll only put fuel (even kero) in approved containers so I called to see about delivery: Can't find a place yet that will deliver gasoline - they're only for fuel oil types. They also said gas could only be delivered to a properly installed EPA container, so I guess that's out.
Thanks Pop
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Pop wrote:

be able to go to the local gas station and fill up. the attendants never know if approved or not. Where I live everyone in any sort of construction has custom made tanks that are not approved by anyone, they just pull up and fill up and go. My truck hold 60 gal itself so qty would not be an issue there.
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MC wrote:

Of course you are right, local codes have nothing to do with how much gas you buy or essentially anything you do at a gas station or on a highway. Heck you could just buy a truck put two 30 gallon tanks in the bed, and use it just to hold gas at home. Totally out of the jurisdiction of local codes as long as it meets the state roadworthy requirements.
The simplest procedure as suggested above is a barrel on a small trailer. Total cost would be about $200 or less, but you would have to register the trailer for road use add a power connection for brake, tail, and turn signal lights on the car and add a simple ball hitch to your vehicle.
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You would also have to make sure the barrel was placarded or labeled. The DOT has rules about anything like pulled over the road.

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You mean the U.S. Department of Transportation? or the state department of transportation?
Certainly the U.S. department has no jurisdiction to regulate boat trailers or what you haul in the boat on a trailer. (think interstate transportation). The state does have regulations on trailers, most individuals probably have no idea what may be prohibited from being hauled or the conditions required and couldn't care less. I have my doubts that the state patrol has any idea either and would stop a trailer only if it is swaying. They wouldn't pay any attention to a barrel.
Li wrote:

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George E. Cawthon wrote:

Bad advise for Maryland. Our state police are very well trained in the recognition of illegal hazardous materials transports. The US DOT rules are enforceable on intrastate shipment because it is simply impractical to tell intrastate from interstate in actual practice. If the Maryland State police can see that barrel you will be stopped. The regularly stop camping and travel trailers for using over sized propane tanks. Such training and enforcement efforts have received a lot of command attention since 2001/9/11.
--
Tom Horne

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: Pop wrote: : > Hi, : > : > What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators? : > : > I am in far northern NY with harsh winters and occasional : > multi-day power outages with frequent outages of several hours in : > the winter. Worst one so far was during the Ice Storm of '98 - 5 : > days without power. : > : > Here's my solution, but I don't like it: : > I simply keep about 30-35 gallons of gas on hand beginning : > about late November through February. They're all in proper : > containers, stored outdoors, in a small open "locker" I made for : > the purpose, painted red, highly visible from the road/driveway : > for emergency vehicles, and clearly labelled as gasoline storage, : > no smoking, all that good stuff. But that's a LOT of gas sitting : > around in separate containers, some of the plastic, which I know : > I should get rid of. That locker is about ten feet from the : > garage and near a storage shed behind them, with a wooden gate : > into the area. Theft is not a problem - very rural, motion : > lites, siren, and someone is home near 24/7, etc.. : > : > I wanted a farm tank wiht a pump, but was refused; have to be a : > business. : > Have two cars, which hold plenty of fuel, but ... no way to get : > the gas out of them. Siphoning is impossible these days. : > : > My next generator's going to be a diesel! I know how to pump : > fuel oil from my furnaces! But what about right now? : > : > TIA, : > : > Pop : > : > : : Do it like most small time farmers/ranchers. Fill : a 55 gallon drum, that you can roll or raise to a : convenient height (drum horizontal). You can even : build a cage with an inner sliding part that : you raise a foot at a time with a hydraulic car jack. : : The drum would have a locking tap on the downside : opening with the other opening up. Whenever you : want gas you unscrew the top opening to allow air : to enter, then fill whatever you want from the : tap. Add a hose and get the barrel high enough : and you can fill the vehicles. Probably want to : use up all the extra gas and empty the empty the : barrel once a year. : : All those proper containers are a hazard. Much : better and safer to store a large amount : altogether in an air tight container.
Hmm, I like that actually, if it's allowable here; think I'll check that out further.
Couple questions: Why do you say the several containers are a hazard? I don't want several containers, but curious why they're more hazardous than a drum? How do you control moisture inside the tank? Wouldn't it have to be kep mostly full year 'round to keep moisture from becoming a problem? Still thinking about moisture: How would one know the drum they are getting wasn't going to rust inside? Outside you paint & care for, but regular 55 gal drums are relatively thin metal, are they not? If it were you, where would you source the drum from? I have a few in the cellar that i keep drinking water in, that stay fine inside, but ... dunno what would happen if they contained gasoline.
I don't see any problem with gas getting stale; as long as it's kept in closed containers it'll last 6 months easy, and right now in the spring I just start using up the winter gas in the lawn tractor, weed eater, etc etc etc.. So that part doesn't worry me too much; it's fairly easy to keep a turn-over going. Especially if I could easily dump it into the car too.
Hmm, I'll bet a propane tank would work too, wouldn't it? Maybe even two of them. Certainly no problem with tank expansion/collapse in the changeing temps and all that - and they could even be lightly pressurized with moisture-free (well, filtered anyway) compressed air, to act as a pump of sorts. I keep envisioning a drum collapsing after a heat wave followed by a few cold nights <g>. Well, that pressurizing might not be practical, but the rest bears some thinking about.
Thanks - helps to discuss things with others. Sort of like brainstorming; brings out new thoughts.
Pop
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Pop wrote:

They are hazardous because you have more chances of spills from splits, stumbling over them, vapor release, etc.
You don't need to control moisture inside. If it really worries you a can of gas drier in or better yet about 8 ounces of ethanol (from the paint store) in a full tank. It won't rust inside when full of gas. But the best insurance is to have a new or nearly new barrel with no evidence of rust. If that still worries you put a filter on the outflow or use a built in filter at the tap. The barrel may rust through but not for a long time like 20 years.
No, 55 gallon drums are heavy metal. I used one for compost half buried in the ground and later switched to one standing up in the open (easier to dump over to empty). The first lasted about 15 years but the bottom rusted out because I had poked holes in it for drainage. The second which stand in my garden (and gets sprayed at least every 3rd day throughout the summer)is still going strong (bottom rusty because it has holes poked in it and solid except for the bottom. I bought the second at least 10 years ago from a farm woman who had used it for many years on a wagon to spray insecticide. Now if they can stand holding compost year round, gasoline storage is not going to affect them much. My father store gas in one for probably 25 years, unfortunately, the last placement was under a cedar tree standing upright. He only got gas out in an emergency so water and snow would fill the top rim, leaves would fall on the top and decompose, and then daily temperature changes would cause the barrel to contract and pull the mess from the top through the threads of the fill screws. What was pulled through was so fine you couldn't see it, but it plugged one of those sintered bronze gas filters. You are not going to rust out a good steel barrel.
I have no idea what the cost of a new one is (check any gas and oil company), but the best bet for a decent price is to buy a standard oil barrel from someone or some company that uses a lot of oil--diesel, lub oil, hydraulic fluid, cutting fluid, and whatever comes in barrels. Check garages, heavy equipment dealers and repair places, lub shops, farmers.
Check what the gas company URLs say. Gas remains fresh for at least 1 year if stored properly.
Yep other tanks are possible, but they will be a lot more expensive, especially for the little amount of gas you want to store.
Sealed gas tanks worked ok for my dad with temperatures ranging from -40 to 87 degrees. The end walls would bulge, but they never leaked. If a drum is full of gas it can collapse. Actually it won't collapse if you have 4 or 5 gallons in it. and the temp difference between hot days followed by cold night isn't significant. If you are really worried, when winter comes, open the top screw to equalize the pressure and then close tight, but there is no need for that, just taking some gas out every month eliminates any possible problem.
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: > : Pop wrote: : > : > Hi, : > : > : > : > What do you folk do for gasoline storage for your generators? ... : : They are hazardous because you have more chances : of spills from splits, stumbling over them, vapor : release, etc. Agreed; that's why I made the little red, metal "closet" for them to store in, besides the fact that the fire dept liked it better (grudgingly, but they said there was nothing to stop me). That was a long time ago; I'm almost afraid to ask again. We only have volunteer FD's around here but they're pretty sharp in general. : : You don't need to control moisture inside. If it : really worries you a can of gas drier in or better : yet about 8 ounces of ethanol (from the paint : store) in a full tank. It won't rust inside when : full of gas. But the best insurance is to have a : new or nearly new barrel with no evidence of rust.
Good points.
You seem to be right. I have two metal and two plastic barrels for water stored downstairs in the basement. I emptied the metal barrels and pulled rings to look inside; they're pretty clean and not rusty.
: If that still worries you put a filter on the : outflow or use a built in filter at the tap. The : barrel may rust through but not for a long time : like 20 years.
Good; hadn't thought of that yet - already have funnels with the copper water strainers in them.
: : No, 55 gallon drums are heavy metal. I used one : for compost half buried in the ground and later : switched to one standing up in the open (easier to : dump over to empty). The first lasted about 15 : years but the bottom rusted out because I had : poked holes in it for drainage. The second which : stand in my garden (and gets sprayed at least : every 3rd day throughout the summer)is still going : strong (bottom rusty because it has holes poked in : it and solid except for the bottom. I bought the : second at least 10 years ago from a farm woman who : had used it for many years on a wagon to spray : insecticide. Now if they can stand holding : compost year round, gasoline storage is not going : to affect them much. My father store gas in one : for probably 25 years, unfortunately, the last : placement was under a cedar tree standing upright. : He only got gas out in an emergency so water and : snow would fill the top rim, leaves would fall on : the top and decompose, and then daily temperature : changes would cause the barrel to contract and : pull the mess from the top through the threads of : the fill screws. What was pulled through was so : fine you couldn't see it, but it plugged one of : those sintered bronze gas filters. You are not : going to rust out a good steel barrel.
Thanks for sharing your experience. : : I have no idea what the cost of a new one is : (check any gas and oil company), but the best bet : for a decent price is to buy a standard oil barrel : from someone or some company that uses a lot of : oil--diesel, lub oil, hydraulic fluid, cutting : fluid, and whatever comes in barrels. Check : garages, heavy equipment dealers and repair : places, lub shops, farmers.
Ah, hadn't thought of Agway either - even have a relative works at one of them. Also have a nephew at a car dealership. Good thinking - if they can't help me they'll at least know where I can call around to I bet. : : Check what the gas company URLs say. Gas remains : fresh for at least 1 year if stored properly.
Yup, stale gas isn't really ever an issue. Worst happens here is I use up the winterized gas in the summer for lawn equipment. I do keep it rotating. : : Yep other tanks are possible, but they will be a : lot more expensive, especially for the little : amount of gas you want to store. : : Sealed gas tanks worked ok for my dad with : temperatures ranging from -40 to 87 degrees. The : end walls would bulge, but they never leaked. If : a drum is full of gas it can collapse. Actually : it won't collapse if you have 4 or 5 gallons in : it. and the temp difference between hot days : followed by cold night isn't significant.
Ummm, nearly empty cans can collapse too - I've done it; not completely, but enough it wouldn't reliably sit upright any longer. One side collapsed more than the other. Are you saying the expand/contraction of gasoline can also collapse a can if it's full and air tight? I never thought of that, but I can see it's possible I guess, esp inthe case of 45 or 55 gallons; it would be a fairly significant volume change I guess.
If you : are really worried, when winter comes, open the : top screw to equalize the pressure and then close : tight, but there is no need for that, just taking : some gas out every month eliminates any possible : problem.
Right. Goog point.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Pop wrote:

No, I'm not saying that. Liquids don't compress, so a tank full of liquid can never collapse. What I'm saying is that you don't need to worry about a 55 gallon drum collapsing under any condition. It might bulge or dimple a bit but that is all.
The old school trick of collapsing a metal can by boiling some water in it, screwing on a tight cap, and then letting it cool is fun to watch, shows the power of air pressure, but is extreme. You have water vapor dropping from 212 to a lower temperature and condensing to liquid. That leaves virtually no vapor in the can. That extreme will never happen with gasoline in a barrel without deliberate manipulation to cause it.

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Pop writes:

I made a hose for the pressure test fitting on my Jeep's fuel injector rail, and now it pumps gas for emergencies!
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: Pop writes: : : > Have two cars, which hold plenty of fuel, but ... no way to get : > the gas out of them. : : I made a hose for the pressure test fitting on my Jeep's fuel injector : rail, and now it pumps gas for emergencies!
Actually, I've considered that, but ... I've never been sure of the right way to do it. How do you trigger the fuel pump; turn ignition to ON (not start), or jumper in the test connector? I've never been able to locate the right pins in the power connector. What did you use for a valve?
Pop
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Pop writes:

The rail has a Schrader valve with 1/4 flare fitting. All you need is a 1/4 female flare on a hose. Connect it, run hose to fuel can, start the car. Turn off car when done. Kind of like drawing blood.
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I am a farmer. I dont have one of these but I have seen farmers with a 30 or 55 gallon drum with a hand operated pump that screws right into the threaded hole on the drum. Then you just pump it out. You need to change the gas once a year or so or it will go stale, so then just pump it into your car and bring home a few 5 gallon gas cans every day and refill it. I have to gas up my tractor, but I just haul 5 gallon gas cans and always keep one on hand. I have considered getting a drum and pump myself, and may do this some day.
I think a vent is needed for heat/cold expansion contraction. Go to your local TSC (Tractor Supply Co). I think they have them.
Mark
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In reply to my own message that I just left you, I decided to do a little looking on the web.
Here's a barrel (drum) pump made for gasoline (and other liquids) for $25. http://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/137382.htm
Here is another http://www.randmh.com/php/page.phtml?0300 Stock number W1408366 Low cost Steel pump (also $25)
Then all you need is a drum and I'd inquire about the venting. Be sure the drum did not contain some chemicals that will mix with the gas and cause problems. Find one of the oil change places or a tractor repair center. They get motor oil, trans fluid, etc. in those drums. A little oil in the gas wont hurt a thing. You will likely have to pay for the barrel, they usually pay a deposit on them.
Using google, I searched for "drum pump" (with quotes). There are lots of them. This is the first one I found that said (FOR GASOLINE). I'm sure there are others.
Heck, for that price I might order one myself !!!
Here are a few other sites I looked at. http://www.vestilmfg.com/products/dhequip/drum_dispensing.htm http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku 07980 http://www.indco.com/products.aspx?catid 9&mapidC http://www.randmh.com/php/page.phtml?0300
Here is a vent. It says .... F) The VENT-B opens manually or automatically at 5 p.s.i. May be used with flammable liquids. Utilize on plastic or steel drums. Fits horizontal drum with 2" bung opening. GO TO: http://www.vestilmfg.com/products/dhequip/drum_faucets.htm
Mark
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