Gas water heater capacity

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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote

In my case, the lost heat is totally a benefit. It helps heat the garage and several pipes there burst last year so we had to add a heater. We do not need to AC the garage in summer, but we have to heat it a bit in winter.
We figured out the change at last. The 'heat unit' was better insulated while we were gone and the house was rented. This meant less leach hat in the garage and resulted in a 800$ busted pipe repair last winter. I'm actually thinking the insulation is costing us more with comparison of a heater back there, than removal of the added insulation <g>. Kinda like, 'remove in winter, put back in summer'.
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RepairNovice wrote:

You RENT the water heater?
How does that work?
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wrote:

Yes my title does a have a poor choice of words, but I didn't say I rent the water heater, (see above) :)
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RepairNovice wrote:

I replaced a 40 gallon tank that started leaking with a 20 gallon and had all the hot water I needed for showers and dish washing. I too live by my self.
Then I moved and had hot water off the boiler coil. That thing ran 10 or 15 times a day even if I didn't use any hot water. So I shut that off and installed 2 point of use tankless water heaters and don't regret it a bit. They only run when you actually use them. One for the bathroom sink and shower and another for the kitchen sink. I love this. The longer you use it the hotter it gets.
--
Claude Hopper ? 3 :) 7/8

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On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:56:24 -0400, Claude Hopper
Thanks Claude for your input.
My 50 gal. tank also started leaking a few weeks ago. It was about 10 years old and as I mentioned I've been renting.
They replaced it with another 50 gal. tank but I'm not happy with it. For some reason (I haven't figured it out yet) the replacement tank can be heard all throughout the house when the water is heating up.
I could never hear the original tank unless I was in the furnace room.
So when I ask the company to come back I thought I'd look into getting a 40 gal. tank instead, for cost savings.
Are point of use tankless water heaters costly? Can they be installed in any house? Thanks!

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RepairNovice wrote:

I paid $144.00 each for my tankless heaters and installed them myself. They are 25 amps so you need to run 30 amp line to each unit plus plumbing.

--
Claude Hopper ? 3 :) 7/8

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wrote:

It's nice to hear that you are well satisfied with tankless hot water heaters.
There is another do it your self group that frequently has questions and complaints about them but it also criticises and decries our North American practice of having a hot water storage tank either heated, electrically, by gas or from a heating furnace.
230 x 25 amps = 5750 watts. And they only use electricity while water is being used.
As pointed out you required 30 amp wiring; and 30 amp double pole circuit breakers to connect them. That's only 10 AWG IIRC. Not hard to do usually; but occasionally requires 'bunching up' things electrically in the main circut breaker panel?
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And that is going to supply hot water in sufficient quantity to do exactly what? He's got one tank type now that supplies his entire house. With typical incoming water temps in winter in most parts of the US, 5750watts isn't going to supply enough hot water for even a decent shower.
Which is why you rarely, if ever, see an electric tankless used as a whole house solution. If you have gas available, then it's another story.
Another questionable notion is the idea that the heat loss from a water heater is less important because it goes to help heat the house in winter. I think in general, this is simply false. First, much of the heat loss in a gas heater is up the flue. Second, the heat that escapes the insulated surfaces of the tank, would go entirely toward helping heat the house, IF the tank were in the living space. Don't know about you, but I rarely see water heaters sitting in the kitchen. Usually, they are in the basement or garage. Let's say it's in an unfinished basement area, close to an outside wall as they are usually installed. I'd venture that the amount of the escaping heat that makes any impact on the energy usage of the house is tiny compared with the heat that is lost in the basement to the surrounding walls, etc.
And even if the tank was in the living space, somehow the fact that this heat is working against you when you have AC running never gets mentioned.
In short, to the OP, from your water usage situation, I see nothing wrong with going with a 40 gal unit. That is a very popular size for homes without the need for large amounts of hot water. Many homes have them and are not running out of hot water. Besides the initial cost being less, whatever you save on your energy, every little bit helps.

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On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 09:59:55 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I guess you dont get out much trader. Electric tankless are quite common even in cold climates. Here is just one of them: http://www.e-tankless.com/products.php Look up all the tankless manufacturers. They all carry electric. Bubba

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And I guess you failed simple math. The poster claimed:
"230 x 25 amps = 5750 watts. And they only use electricity while water " is being used."
To which I stated that 5750 watts isn't going to supply enough hot water for even a decent shower. From your own link, it takes 100 AMPS to get a 73 degree temp rise at 2.25 gallons a minute. At 50 AMPS, the lowest AMP heater in the chart, you get a whopping 36 degree temp rise at 2.25 gallons a minute. So, with incoming water of even 50 deg, you wind up with 86 deg heated water.
Do the math anyway you want, and as I stated, at 25 amps, you aren't going to run a shower, much less an entire house, which was what the OP was trying to do. The electric tankless, by the spec sheet you provided, are only claimed to be practical for the southern US with 80AMPS. For the rest of the US they need 100 to 150 amps.
Now, how many homes have an extra 100 to 150 amps available for a water heater? And would you advocate using an electric tankless to heat water when the OP has natural gas available, which in virtually all cases is going to be cheaper?
Just because manufacturers make them, don't mean they are popular. Maybe I overstated the case by saying you rarely, if ever, see them used. Let me restate it by saying in the vast majority of cases they are impractical compared to other readily available solutions. And here in NJ, I've seen lots of new homes recently. A few had tankless, but every one of them was nat gas tankless. I did not see a single electric tankless.
Electric tankless are quite

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On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:40:40 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Nice math you did there. So impressive. And YES, you did overstate your case like all you EE's do all the time. I didnt care what electric he has in his home. YOU said (and I quote)
**Which is why you rarely, if ever, see an electric tankless used as a whole house solution. ***
Obviously you live in a trailer or under a rock. The electric is becoming more and more popular. Its very apparent. When natural gas is cost is going through the roof with no end in site. Our area alone will go up 50% this winter in natural gas cost. Once again, you were WRONG! Say it trader, "You were wrong". You guys have such a hard time with that phrase. Bubba

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Sure, just ignore the math and that the typical service is 100-200 amps and that in most of the US, to have any reasonable output from an electric whole house on demand water heater is in excess of 100 AMPS. So what if the OP has to get a new higher amp service from the street, a new panel, pay for that installation cost, it doesn't come out of YOUR pocket, right?
YOU said (and I quote)

OK, I'd like to put it to a vote. Simple questions:
1 - How many people reading this newsgroup have an ELECTRIC WHOLE HOUSE WATER HEATER?
2 - How many believe they are a practical. cost effective solution for a whole house water heater in most single family homes in the US?
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On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 08:17:56 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I cant help it if you live in a trailer. Believe it or not there are a LOT of people out there with money. I install and service it for them everyday. How about a home with 7 GeoThermal systems! Yes, thats a home. It is commonplace. Boggles my mind everyday but its there, it happens and people have the money to pay for it..

Simple questions for a simple-minded simpleton. How is it you think that a couple people answering a newsgroup qualifies for an accurate accounting of the whole house electric on demand water heaters in your area, my area or the whole country? You really need to step away from the computer and go take a walk outside once in a while, trader. Bubba
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electric tankless where incoming water is cold, like 40 degrees, and people want to run more than one shower at a time REQUIRES a dedicated 200 amp service just to heat water, seperate 200 or 100 amp service for all other uses.
this requires a large upgrade, utility company cooperation, very costly and more so where service line to homes are underground. the tankless companies themselves recommend putting 2 units in series for such applications......
sure it can be done if you dont mind spending boatloads of money:(
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And that has exactly what to do with how practical or common it is to find whole house electric tankless water heaters?
I install and service it for them

Now you're really showing who's seriously out of touch. A home with 7 GeoThermal systems is common? LOL.

And this has what again to do with the thread? You claim to be in the trade. The OP stated the situation. He currently has a single 50 gal natural gas water heater in his single family home hat he needs to replace. He's considering moving down to a 40 gallon to save a bit. How many customers have you had in that situation that went to an electric tankless? And if there are any, please tell us how many amps and how it fit into the overall electric capacity of the house. And how much time would you spend scoping out and quoting a customer an electric tankless install in that situation?
I already gave you my answer. It may happen, but it's rare. And as I've stated, over the last couple years, I've looked at 100+ homes here in NJ, which I'd say is an average climate. I'd say 100+ homes is a decent sample size. About half of them were new construction. And since you dragged cost into it, they were all over $800K, about half were $1mil+. I saw maybe 2 that had tankless period. And not one of those was an electric tankless, for obvious reasons.

Pay attention. I didn't say it was an accurate accounting. But if indeed electric whole house tankless are as common in homes as you claim, we should hear from some folks. I see questions here all the time from folks using electic storage, gas storage, oil storage, gas tankless, etc. Can't recall anyone that actually has an electric whole house tankless. I recall people asking about them, but not anyone who actually has one. Not saying they don't exist, only that they are in fact not common. Afraid of a simple question?
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On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:09:19 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Wow! You are dense. It appears you dont live in an area where anyone has anything "above average". Your loss. You should get out once in a while.

Tell me where I said it is "common". Now it appears you cant read either. By the way, around here, lots of people have actual full size pools in their home. Not a pool in a screened in enclosure but in their basement. Ive got one that even has one on his roof. Some have basketball courts. Unfortunately, I dont have that kind of money but sure is neat to see how the other half live. Very nice customers too. They dont haggle over $100.

Because you cant seem to get it through your pea-brained head that other people live better than you. MUCH MUCH better. Your little postage stamp of the world is just a spec.

Hey, you finally got something right.

Of course it isnt an everyday occurance. But you made it out that it never happens. Again, you were wrong and you cant stand to admit it.

No actually what you said was: ***Which is why you rarely, if ever, see an electric tankless used as a whole house solution.**** You should learn to "Never say Never". It will always bite you in the ass.

and in this area, tankless is becoming more and more popular. I have people ripping out oil and gas furnaces and putting in heat pumps. Gas and oil is expensive here. Electric is too but not considered as bad.

Then it seems that your blithering is quite useless in fact.

and I see questions in here about people wanting to install window units in attics, crawl spaces, outhouses, etc. So exactly has that got to do with an accurate accounting of anything?

Afraid of a simple answer? Bubba
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It's quoted right above for you. Here it is again,exactly what you posted:
"How about a home with 7 GeoThermal systems! Yes, thats a home. It is commonplace."
By the way, around here, lots of people have actual full size

And again, this has zippo to do with electric tankless water heaters.

I would say you can't get it through your head that living better has very little to do with electric tankless water heaters. Maybe that's on your dream list of things you want to have, but clearly not on most normal people's radar map.

Gee, a minute a go electric tankless was a common thing in a single family home. So were 7 geo themal systems.
But you made it out that it

Yes, and I corrected that in the very next post to "Let me restate it by saying in the vast majority of cases they are impractical compared to other readily available solutions. " Which I stand by.
You on the other hand, chose to go on the attack on me. You even had the gall to try to hurl insults because I did the simple math that showed the post that started all this discussion of electric tankless whole house was full of baloney. That poster went through an example suggesting a system using 25 amps, which any damn fool knows is off by on the order of 4 to 6 times. You let that go by the wayside, but jump on me, for pointing out the simple physics don't work out. That obviously is beyond your math level, which is why you feel the need to slam engineers.

And just for clarification, why don't you share exactly where that is?
Also, tankless is becoming more popular here too. Five years ago, instead of seeing 2, I would have seen zero. So, what? We were talking about the practicality of a 40 or 50 gallon natural gas storage tank in an existing single family home vs an ELECTRIC tankless. Got it now?
So, what should the OP do? He needs to replace a 50 gallon natural gas storage unit. He's considering going down to a 40. And you say, he should do exactly what? Put in an electric tankless? Simple question, in most cases like this is it practical and cost effective to put in an electric tankless for the whole single family house, yes or no?
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On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:44:28 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Trader, It is common in the city it is in. Mega money town. Its about 20-25 mins from my town. In my town only one Geo per home is common. Again, only 20 mins away is a totally different world than where I live. It seems to be something you cant quite seem to grasp.

And again, just trying to get you to step out of your own little world in a trailer and understand that there are many people out there that can afford a whole house on demand electric water heater. Also lots of people than can afford to pay to heat no only their home but also there outdoor sidewalk and driveway to melt the snow.

Well, it certainly appears you cant afford one. It seems that as you say it isnt common because it is considered too expensive. Obviously, too expensive for you but not for others. Does that make you jealous? Get over it.

Yes, it is common around my area. Step OUT of the box trader.

You're mighty big on restating. They usually call that "back-peddling". That seems to be one thing I found that you are quite good at.

MyMy Trader. This is the internet. You I thought would have learned by now to put on your magic underwear and be prepared for a little heated discussion once in a while and not whine so much. Its only words. Believe it or not you will survive. If you cant handle the heat, grow a set of balls or run out of here with your tail between your legs and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. Ive not heard such whinner in a long time. Get over it.

Exactly what "What" is? You want fuel costs here or what? If I give that to you will that make you feel better or do you want them so you can fill your screen with some more useless math numbers?

Get this: Why stop at 40 gal? For one person even a 30 gal gas heate is way overkill. I had a 30 that did 5 people. It croaked in 6 yrs and I installed a 50 gal. There, you like all those numbers?

Actually, for what he is considering, a small tankless would operate just fine for him for one person. Id bet a single point of use heater would work for his shower.

Trader, It is EXCEPTIONALLY apparent that you are an out of work EE (retired Im guessing) with more time on your hands than brains. You are like arguing with a 12 yr old child, something I fortunately choose not to have any more time for. You may trudge forward through the mud on your own and you can change all the words you wish and interpret all you want and write down all the math formulas your heart desires. You will still always be my little pet lunatic. Bubba
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I can grasp that you're so deceptive that you won't even give us an idea of what city or state you're living in. Of course, if you did so, then it would be much easier for folks to evaluate your bogus claims, determine what energy really costs and figure out that you're full of baloney.

So now we're back to it's not common. Good to see you finally agree.

Again, it's not that it's too expensive. It's that it's expensive and IMPRACTICAL compared to other readily available solutions. Even if you don't care about costs, in the vast majority of cases, there are far more practical solutions, like gas tankless or large or multiple storage tank solutions.
I asked you, who claim to be knowledgable and in the trade, a direct question that was the point of the whole thread you did not answer:
"So, what should the OP do? He needs to replace a 50 gallon natural gas storage unit. He's considering going down to a 40. And you say, he should do exactly what? Put in an electric tankless? Simple question, in most cases like this is it practical and cost effective to put in an electric tankless for the whole single family house, yes or no? "

And again, unlike you, most of us here aren't afraid to say where "our area" is, because we're honest and have no need to hide. When you hide, you can make up demographics, incomes, energy costs, climate, anything you want.

Yes, it's the internet, where posters like you are unfortunately all too common. I'll let others judge who is the deceptive poster who often turns what were valid discussion threads into flame wars by going on the attack for no reason.
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:39:08 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Holy Cripes Trader. Exactly how damn hard is it for you to read the header fields of my post and find out where my internet connection is from? I guess you are just too busy looking for math formulas and discrepincies to do the teeniest bit of homework. Man O Man you are dumber than a box of rocks. If I give you my address will that make you feel better? I could give you a pacifier too. Now you've gone and upset me because you made a liar of me. I posted that I was done with you but you are just too fun to futz with. You have earned the likes of being my little pet pull toy. Everytime I give you a "tug" you "speak." Bubba

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