Gas

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

Here is one for you to think about. A 100 pound sack of Whole Corn for cattle feed will run about $6.00 and the moon shinners can make 20 gallons of shin Alcohol out of a 100 pound sack of corn. Shin will burn in your care with no gas at all and you can drink it too. It is 190 proof or 95% Alcohol and 55 water. That is the samething as gas 94% gas and 6% water.

Now the Alcohol refining product can be bought at the feed store by the 100 pound sack of corn for $6.00 and makes 20 gallions of Alcohol that can be used as fuel in the auto. Now base gas at $2.00 a gallion and that makes the alcohol replacing the gas as follow here :

20 Gal. of Alcohol sells for $40.00 as replacement for gas.

20 Gal. of Gas sells for $40.00 as the gas fuel.

100 # of Corn raw crude to refine is $6.00 . So you have a profit and refining cost of $34.00 for 20 Gal. of fuel / gas.

INFO first. A barrel of oil is 42 Gallons and a 1/2 a barrel of oil is 21 gal.

1/2 barrel of oil 21 gal. cost now about $25.00 so crude to make gas to make 20 gal. of gas cost $25.00 . Then $25.00 for crude to make 20 gal. of gas is $25.00 - $40.00 = $15.00 refining cost and profit.

$25.00 worth of crude oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / gas = $15.00 Profit and Refining cost.

$6.00 worth of crude material / oil makes $40.00 worth of fuel / Alcohol / gas = $34.00 Profit / Refining Cost.

So they can refine Corn at $6.00 to make $40.00 worth of fuel or they can refine $25.00 worth of crude oil to make $40.00 worth of fuel. The $6.00 making $40.00 worth of fuel sounds a whole lot better than $25.00 worth of crude to make $40.00 worth of fuel. The Corn is a whole lot cheaper to make the fuel than from Crude oil.

Now the data of the 100 # of Corn can make 20 gal. of Shin is a fact in this part of the country and i can get you to talk to Crocket Johnson who makes shin and check the facts. This is a fact and no bull. Now of cource Crocket wants $20.00 a Gal. for 190 proof / 95% Alcohol shine and it is the good stuff.

Alcohol can be made cheaper than gas now days but with the oil company against it. Alcohol is just too costly to produce.

TURTLE

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

You forgot that the U.S. Government has octane rating and this covers everything you say and burniability of the fuel. 87 Octane Gasohol or 87 Octane Gas have the same burniability as each other. If it was not the same it would have a less or more of a Octane rating on it.

TURTLE

[Rod Speed]

Rather pathetic, really.

Its more complicated than that.

More complicated than that too.

More complicated than that too.

Rather pathetic, really.

[Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb li]

I didn't forget that they sell gasoline with a specific octane rating. Octane rating has nothing to do with the energy in the fuel. Ethanol has less energy per gallon than gasoline therefore you are getting less energy per gallon and should therefore not be willing to pay as much as you pay if you are buying all gasoline. You might, of course, choose the gasohol because you wanted to cheaply get the water out of your tank or because you think that other additives used to raise octane are a danger to the environment, but at least then you are making a choice based on something other than a misguided look at volumes.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

I like your theory on Octane rating being different for Gasohaol and regular gas and you need to discuss this with the DOT of your state and have them change the Octane rating to reflect the less power from Alcohol gas than regular unleaded gas. I think they would be interesed in your theory here.

TURTLE

[Rod Speed]

Rather pathetic, really.

Nope, they realise what he said is correct.

The octane rating has nothing to do with the energy content. Its about what compression ratio it can be used at without predetonation etc.

Rather pathetic, really.

[George E. Cawthon]

I think you are missing a lot of the cost of alcohol production. $6 a hundred for corn is probably well below the production cost. You may be able to buy it for that but only because there is an oversupply and the farmer wants to get something back. If a lot of the corn went to alcohol production, the supply would drop, the demand would increase, and no one would sell for lower than production cost which without government price support would probably be double or triple the $6 figure.

Second, I don't believe the 20 gallons of 95 percent alcohol from 100 pounds of corn. By weight you are converting 100 pounds of corn to about 140-150 pounds of alcohol? That just isn't possible unless you have a bunch of other materials not accounted for (and don't tell me its the water). I suspect that you probably have at least 20 pounds of dry material left from the mash and the alcohol probably weighs 70 pounds which is more like 9 gallons of alcohol leaving about 10 pounds lost as other than dry mash and alcohol.

You didn't account for the energy used in distilling. How much of that 95 percent alcohol was burned to distill your mash to 95 percent alcohol? I have no idea, but probably

1/2 or more. That leaves you with about 4 1/2 gallons for your original $6 (and big time distillers can come close to that untaxed cost). You are still ahead until you go back and refigure the actual cost of the grain.

Every economic study that I have seen, except one, shows that you cannot get back the energy that is put into the alcohol production. And that single study just barely made it. Note I'm talking energy, not cost, because if you don't come up with more energy than you started, it doesn't make sense to convert oil/gas to alcohol.

Small productions, small geographic areas, and use of waste material as the basic material can be profitable, and the energy can be on the positive side but that is mainly because the basic material is waste. With large scale production, the waste material quickly becomes limiting.

[Dominique Cormann]

You need to look up what octane means.

It is the resistance to ignition value. It is NOT the amount of energy per volume.

[Duane Bozarth]

TURTLE wrote: ...

...

Turtle, better check some more on what octane rating is...it is a measure of the specific energy of the fuel...there is no rating of "burniability" even if there were such a word...

[Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb li]

Octane is a hydrocarbon with a nominal 'octane rating' of 100 which various gasoline blends are compared to. Ethanol has a higher octane rating than the blends alone but a lower potential energy, so when buying on octane rating, the ethanol blend has less potential energy and therefore value, so it should be discounted.

[ptngr]

I see in another post that you're from CA. So am I. This makes a difference.

The 76 station near my house has a HUGE sign that advertises "NO MTBE." Don't know if all 76 stations are MTBE-free, but most of the others haven't gotten rid of it yet. That probably accounts for the difference in mileage. I don't know about the running smoother thing, though.

I heard that newer cars/trucks need the octane they're designed for even though they run fine (no knocks) w/ lower octane gases. The computers adjust to make them run ok, but the performance and efficiency go down. So I think it just depends on the car.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

The ratio of corn used verses the Alcohol production is coming from a shin producer and the alcohol % could not be what he states as 95% alcohol but anybody will drink the shin could not tell you the 100 proof from the 190 proof but you have to take him at his word of 190 proof. Crocket did say for a fact and I believe him that he can make 20 -- 1 gal. milk jugs of shin out of a 100 pound bag of corn only and no cobbs. Now the proof could not be what is state on % or proof.

The studies may be done and looked at for ever but when the Oil industry does not like alcohol as the motor fuel. You can forget about tring to make it acceptiable for use as fuel. It will never happen.

TURTLE

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

I don't study gas as a hobby but if the octane rating was all the same as you say here. I could run 87 octane gas in my Lexus LS-400 and not have to burn the

93 octane fuel. I can fill it with 87 Octane fuel and it don't knock but a turtle could out run me with it in the car. I put the 93 in it and it hauls ass. I look at what it does and not what it is suppose to prevent or prevent it from knocking.

TURTLE

[Duane Bozarth]

TURTLE wrote: ...

It's already happening...present limitations are ramp up of production (there are new plants being built all over continuously if you would just go look), distribution and customer acceptance. There are practical limits on fractions of alcohol w/ conventional (read existing) engines, particularly issues w/ types of rubbers and plastics used for seats, tubing, seals, etc., that will not tolerate high concentrations of alcohol that current owners are not willing to trade out...

In addition, bio-diesel is ramping up significantly as well..."oil" companies are not just oil--they're "energy" companies from oil and gas to coal and uranium plus many alternatives if you will also just go and look...

[Duane Bozarth]

TURTLE wrote: ...

Did you follow the link I posted or google octane rating to actually see what it is?

What is available in the "high-test" pump is than just additional anti-knock compound...

[Max]

that warm, secure feeling...

...that comes from being hornswaggled*.

"Shell premium contains SIX TIMES the minimum required detergent agents!!!!!" which works out to a producer's cost of $0.004/gallon extra...

In addition to the FTC website, i urge you all to at least become passingly aware of the DOE's Energy Information Agency.

.max

*unless your owner's manual specs it, of course.