Garden Vinegar vs Roundup

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wrote:

Ehh...He's painted in a corner and he doesn't know how to get out.
Declare the dissenters are idiots and claim victory.
Jim
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Roundup breaks down rather quickly where it is in contact with soil. It is absorbed through the foliage. Acetic acid, vinegar, does not. The roundup will not affect the trees and the vinegar will. You should not repeatedly use vinegar under the canopy of trees. Rule of thumb on trees is that the roots usualy extend as far as the top does.
Round up needs to be handled as a chemical and people applying it regularly as part of their job need to take precautions. But it does not have a long term residual affect on the ground. 24D, the older defoliant, does remain around longer. It is still a very popular ingredient in brush killer and broad leaf weed killers. It has the useful property of being fatal to broadleaf vegetation while being relatively harmless to grasses.
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jamesgangnc wrote:

Another rule of thumb is that a tree has as much organic material below ground as above...
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wrote:

I've poured all kinds of stuff in driveway cracks, including old gasoline. Weeds always come back within a month or two. Sometimes it's an entirely different weed, or maybe a mutation. I'm going to try vinegar next. Never heard of that one. No trees around any of the cracks. But I really should clean out those cracks and fill them in with something. Same with the sidewalk seams I have to weed whack a couple times a year. Anybody recommend a concrete driveway/sidewalk crack sealer or caulk? Anybody use the vinyl crack fillers? I hesitate doing it because it's a lot of work and I think whatever I use will crack up or pop out after a couple freeze/thaw cycles. I've probably got 40-50' of various crack from 1/2" to 3" wide where weeds want to grow.
--Vic
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I'd use the mix vinegar/citrus oil. 1pint/2 tbls And don't use a lot and see how it goes. Get it in on the weed and not on the concrete as much as you can, and rinse after a few hours if you got a lot on the cement. It rained after I used it but it does discolor cement. Not much.
You're probably right about the sealer. Might work for awhile.
The reason I like the defoliant, in cracks, is it leaves the root there, and doesn't bust the soil up for another weed. Using a weed whacker will probably eat a lot of line and not solve the problem for long.
FWIW: If I had a bunch of weeds in a empty lot, about the dumbest thing to do is pull the weeds, but don't put something down to stop the next faster growing weed. Better to just cut with a mower and leave the roots alone.
Jim
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It gets better all the time. So now you're recommending vinegar as a weed preventer that works longer than one or two months? The most I've heard is that vinegar, like regular Roundup, will kill a weed that is currently growing. But neither will PREVENT weeds from growing back. If you want weed prevention in areas, there are products made that will do that for 3 to 6 months, but I'm sure you and the Pesticide Action Network won't like them either.
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It gets better all the time. So now you're recommending vinegar as a weed preventer that works longer than one or two months? The most I've heard is that vinegar, like regular Roundup, will kill a weed that is currently growing. But neither will PREVENT weeds from growing back. If you want weed prevention in areas, there are products made that will do that for 3 to 6 months, but I'm sure you and the Pesticide Action Network won't like them either.
= WTF:
Why don't you just find something else to do?
Jim
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Why? So you can spread FUD and misinformation without anyone else commenting? Who appointed you moderator? You started this thread telling people that there was an issue using Roundup near trees. Now you admit that was incorrect and shifted to the safety of Roundup in general.
Now you told a guy that vinegar is a good solution for keeping weeds away after treatment for two to three months. I'd like to see a reference that supports that.
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I'm thinking a lot of people are seeing your posts because I'm responding. I'm going to provide a service and just ignore you.
Have a nice day.
Jim
And then an idiot said:
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KRW's point is that you can easily find very biased, distorted, one- sided, piece of crap stories about virtually anything on the internet. And I have to agree with his position that a source that starts out with the obvious bias of the reference is usually not worth reading.
I can find you the exact same kind of FUD about your precious chosen alternative, vinegar:
http://www.dherbs.com/articles/vinegar-60.html
"Vinegar, in general, is an impure dilute solution of acetic acid obtained by fermentation and used as a condiment and preservative. Folks, beware of vinegar. It is not a food (condiment). It is a solvent, but more importantly, it is a poison and toxin to the human body."
So, now the vinegar on our salads is gonna kill us all.
You spreaded some FUD yourself here, first making a post that indicated that your issue with Roundup was it's safety when used around trees. Now, instead it turns out it's just Roundup itself that you want to make the issue and I have yet to see anything that says it's harmful to trees.
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On 9/13/2010 5:40 AM snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net spake thus:

Except that you're drawing a parallel between the Pesticide Action Network, which is credible, and some foodie group from the galaxy Bazoonga, which is not.
Keep in mind too that I believe I was one of the first to raise the question of whether the acidity in vinegar might be harmful to the soil or vegetation. This question still hasn't been resolved here, and I don't know the answer, except to say that I would probably not use it myself.
--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.
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I'm not doubting that vinegar is acidic, far from it. However, acetate (the part of vinegar without the acidic H) is a very basic 2-carbon building block of life as we know it, and thus eirther metabolized and "used" to generate energy, or used to build up fats and carbohydrates. I would gather that a bit of lime would neutralize the acid, or that it would just rinse away with a little (artificial) rain. Of course you can overdo the application of vinegar just like that of fertilizer.
Just my gut feelings ...
--
Best regards
Han
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Credible according to whom? Clearly they have an agenda which is to eliminate ALL pesticide use. So, why would I find them to be a credible, balanced authority on the safety of any particular pesticide. Anyone taking one look at that piece, as KRW and I did, can quickly conclude that it's a total hatchet job.
Forget about smearing Monsanto with Agent Orange from the Vietnam war, which has zippo to do with Roundup. Just take a look at the section about Monsanto "harrassing farmers". What Monsanto is simply doing with the farmers is enforcing their contract and product rights. Monsanto spent a lot of money researching and developing seeds that are resistant to Roundup, eg cotton, soybeans, etc. That means that you can grow those crops and use Roundup for weed control instead of other alternatives, which saves the farmers money.
If a farmer chooses to use those seeds sold by Monsanto, part of the agreement is that seeds cannot be taken from the crops produced and then used as seed again. That is what they are enforcing. If the farmers don't like the terms of use, they are free to use seeds from any other seed supplier, of which there are plenty. You have a problem with that? Yet, it gets dragged in to Roundup safety, about which it's relevance is zero. Sound credible to you?
That's a big problem with virtually every environmental organization today. They have been taken over by extremists, with no sense of balance, tradeoffs, etc. If we listen to them, we'll be back in caves.
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spake thus:

I'd say use vinegar sparingly on your food and sidewalks It does have to "kill" the weeds somehow. :-)
Jim
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wrote:

KRW's point is that you can easily find very biased, distorted, one- sided, piece of crap stories about virtually anything on the internet. And I have to agree with his position that a source that starts out with the obvious bias of the reference is usually not worth reading.
I can find you the exact same kind of FUD about your precious chosen alternative, vinegar:
http://www.dherbs.com/articles/vinegar-60.html
"Vinegar, in general, is an impure dilute solution of acetic acid obtained by fermentation and used as a condiment and preservative. Folks, beware of vinegar. It is not a food (condiment). It is a solvent, but more importantly, it is a poison and toxin to the human body."
So, now the vinegar on our salads is gonna kill us all.
You spreaded some FUD yourself here, first making a post that indicated that your issue with Roundup was it's safety when used around trees. Now, instead it turns out it's just Roundup itself that you want to make the issue and I have yet to see anything that says it's harmful to trees.
=== Well you're going over old territory .
You and I are basically agreeing.
http://www.panna.org/files/monsanto.pdf
The article appears to be a fact sheet. Nothing wild and crazy there.
Jim
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In your dreams, idiot.

I call them as they are. You *are* an illiterate idiot.
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wrote:

Jim
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wrote:

It worked really well for one type of weed that really liked my yard. Like this.
http://www.rusticgirls.com/images/thistle_weed.jpg
Also a few others. It works well for getting at weeds that just snapped off when hand picking but left the root. You're right. It's sort of a one trick pony, but if you need it for that trick it works well. It busts up hard dirt for the grass to grow back too.
BTW: Vinegar is a chemical, but I know what you mean. <g>
Jim
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