Garden Vinegar vs Roundup

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I used to use Roundup when I lived in NM and never really worried about the trees because there are so few out there. Then I moved Central TX where live oaks are pretty much everywhere. I listen to KBLJ AM talk radio on Saturday mornings and would often hear to substitute garden vinegar with a bit of orange citrus oil mixed in as a substitute for Roundup. I bought some last year but I didn't get the chance to use any until this year. I have to say, vinegar and citrus oil works as well, if not better, than Roundup, for clearing up that grass and the weeds that grow in the cracks in the sidewalk and driveway. The grass and weeds died almost immediately and so far haven't come back. I prefer to use a defoliant there because pulling those particular weeds can be difficult and tend to grow back right away if I pull them.
BTW, I never use any weed control products on my yard because of the trees on my property. I've been pulling them the old fashion way with very good results. The grass usually just takes the place of the weeds. The weeds were pretty bad when I moved into my new property 5 years ago but I bought a weed puller that did the job.
FWIW, It's one of these:
http://www.kk.org/cooltools/weedhound.jpg
Jim
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Jim, post this on <rec.gardens> as well. They are very helpful.
Also, what is "garden vinegar"? Different from ordinary household vinegar? If so, where get?
TIA
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wrote:

Jim, post this on <rec.gardens> as well. They are very helpful.
Also, what is "garden vinegar"? Different from ordinary household vinegar? If so, where get?
TIA
== This is what I used.:
http://www.garden-ville.com/sites/36600/images/20new.gif
http://buckmoorefeed.com/images/OrangeOil.jpg
I've read where people have used kitchen vinegar but I doubt it works as well. As for buying, try any dedicated garden store. I put about 2 tbls of oil to 1 pint of vinegar in a spray bottle. I soaked them well but next time I'm going to use a lot less and see how it works. Jim
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What makes you think spraying vinegar on weeds is any better for trees than using Roundup? Roundup works by being absorbed and taken in through leaves. I've never had any issues with it affecting any trees. You just don't spray the trees with it.
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wrote:

What makes you think spraying vinegar on weeds is any better for trees than using Roundup? Roundup works by being absorbed and taken in through leaves. I've never had any issues with it affecting any trees. You just don't spray the trees with it.
=== Personally, I keep both away from the trees. I wasn't aware of the problems with RU until I started listening to KBLJ (A very conservative AM station). There is quite a bit of debate regarding RUs use and other foliage isn't the only concern. So yes, I'm relying on the advice of others as I'm not a chemist.
Jim
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So, what exactly did they say about using Roundup around trees? To do a lawn renovation, per the Roundup directions, you can spray the lawn with Roundup and then re-seed a week later. If what's on the surface after a week doesn't interfere with seed germination, I find it hard to believe it's going to harm a tree from the roots.
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wrote:

So, what exactly did they say about using Roundup around trees? To do a lawn renovation, per the Roundup directions, you can spray the lawn with Roundup and then re-seed a week later. If what's on the surface after a week doesn't interfere with seed germination, I find it hard to believe it's going to harm a tree from the roots.
=== You may very well be correct. I should have stated my other RU/Scotts/Monsanto concerns. With their record I'm not taking any chances.
http://www.panna.org/files/monsanto.pdf
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/consumer&idg36532
Why in the worlds Scotts would sell these products is beyond me? In Austin we have trees dying by the thousands. Is it a coincidence that every year Homedepot has stacks of "weed control" ready to sell? BTW: Have you noticed the instructions are in English only?
IMHO, there has got to be a better way.
Jim
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He corrected something else, and I made a wise acre reply, thus correcting his correction. Which was mostly correct at that point anyway. That is, if I remember correctly. If not, I'm sure I'll be corrected.
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On 9/12/2010 12:05 AM, JimT wrote:

The vinegar in your kitchen is about 5% acetic acid and this is 20% but is misnamed as 20% vinegar which would make it diluted to 1%.
http://www.gardenguides.com/102345-vinegar-weed-control.html
I'd be concerned about getting vinegar on cement as it may corrode it.
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Muriatic acid is generally used at 31 or so % for etching concrete prior to other treatments. Therefore 20% acetic acid may not be too bad. Saturating the soil with 20% HAc will of course just about destroy anything close by. Note that acetic acid is one a relatively few chemicals that will attack/discolor stainless steel.
In areas like sidewalks or driveways 20% HAc might be OK. After a few hours, I would rinse it well, though, and perhaps add some lime to sort of neutralize the acid.
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I think that's prudent advice. I did notice a bit of discolrazation. Trying to keep the solution on the weeds seems to be the best advice. I also think I used more than necessary as I wasn't aware of it's effectiveness. Jim
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On 9/11/2010 11:05 PM, JimT wrote:

Thanks Jim
I've always suspected Roundup wasn't as environmentally friendly as Monsanto would have us believe. I have a neighbor that sprays that stuff as though it were water. He actually believes it's safe to drink.
Just something to think about
Roundup: Label - Keep out of reach of children, harmful if swallowed, avoid contact with eyes or prolonged contact with skin. Remove clothing if contaminated. Spray solutions of this product should be mixed, stored and applied only in stainless steel, aluminum, fiberglass, plastic and plastic-lined steel containers. This product or spray solutions of this product react with such containers and tanks to produce hydrogen gas that may form a highly combustible gas mixture. This gas mixture could flash or explode, causing serious personal injury, if ignited by open flame, spark, welders torch, lighted cigarette or other ignition source. Avoid direct applications to any body of water. Do not contaminate water by disposal of waste or cleaning of equipment. Avoid contamination of seed, feed, and foodstuffs. Soak up a small amounts of spill with absorbent clay. Do not reuse container for any other purpose.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/monsanto/roundup.cfm
LdB
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So if you drink Roundup, your farts will be especially explosive<G>.
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We should look for that on Youtube, at any time, now.
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"Higgs Boson" wrote "JimT" wrote:

It's no different. It's a sales gimmick to charge more where in fact, they can get away with a cheaper process (doesnt have to be food grade so they charge *more*). The citrus oil may be cheaper at a garden store though as it also doesn't have to be edible grade and will be sold in quantity. I just use straight vinegar.
Keep in mind it kills grass as well as weeds.
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I'm not sure that is entirely true. A gal of 20% garden vinegar was about $13. In theory that should be the equivalent of 4 gal of 5% vinegar. You can buy a pint of Medina Orange Oil for $16 but you have to remember it's concentrated too. FWIW: I'm not one of those guys that hates paying retail at specialty stores. If it's something that's at HD for half the price that's fine but usually specialty stores charge more for convenience, and they have bills to pay too.
People here really give pool supply stores crap for charging more for chemicals. That's sort of a pet-peeve for me. Where else can you walk in, get your water tested, get advice, get your Polaris worked on, get your pump seal replaced, and get almost anything you need all in one place? I don't mind paying a little more for the convenience. <g>
Funny, but I often get talked out of buying things at specialty stores.
Jim
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...or for $30 you can buy enough concentrate to make 5 gallons of RoundUp. That's enough to last me all summer.

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So far I haven't used much of vinegar or oil, but that's not the point. That amount will last at least 3 years for me. I only use it sparingly. I had some of that concentrate RU left over from when we lived in NM. I took me years to use that too. I think my wife got a hold of it and used it like normal RU on my side yard. One of my neighbors trees isn't looking too healthy. :( On the plus side, there are no weeds in my side yard. <g>
Jim
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If I used it sparingly 5 gallons of RU would last a lifetime. Screw that. It'll take me a while to get ground cover done for the weeded areas. Until then I douse it every few weeks in RU.
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May as well. The ag companies use that stuff like crazy. They grow genetically engineered crops to withstand the effects of RU. Unfortunaly, these oaks on my property are probably 100s of years old and I feel responsible for them during my short time here. I'm not willing to chance some chemical companies make-a-fast-buck product on something so essential to our well being (not to mention my property value).
Jim
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