I am converting my garage into a living room, and have a question about framing.
I have 11 foot ceilings, soon to be 10 foot once I add the floor. 7' is 2x4, and the bottom
3' is concrete block.
Of course, the block sticks out further than the 2x4. I need advice on how best to even this wall out. I want to add a 1x3 or 2x3 frame from floor to ceiling, and then drywall.
I've been told that 4" of insuation (R13) is enough, so I do not intend to bring out the 2x4 any further.
This new frame will be flush against my block, but there will be a 7"+ gap between the frame and the 2x4's.
Two questions:
(1) Will a 1x3 frame be strong enough to support 10' of drywall? Or do I need a 2x3?
(2) What do I do with the 7"+ gap between the frame and the existing
2x4's? Do I leave it alone, pack with more insulation ???
I'd question the absolute need to make the wall surface flat the whole way -- make the difference a "feature" instead would be one way.
On the specific questions -- unless you're in a very mild climate, I'd recommend since you've got the space anyway to add at least R-19. Energy costs are going nowhere but up so in the long run it'll pay and the incremental cost since you have the room is minimal. You'll definitely want some high-density insulation over that section of block wall, though, or you'll have a cold radiator behind the wallboard forever that will make it very uncomfortable living space in winters or require far more heating than it should (again, unless you're in a very temperate zone).
1x3's will be strong enough but on edge won't supply enough nailing profile and on face won't be rigid enough. Your choice really is to frame an interior wall inside the exterior if you're determined to make the wall one plane. Might be good place for metal studs on that inner.
Discussed insulation earlier...more is almost always better, particularly when it doesn't/won't cost anything more in construction than not.
As for the added insulation, that depends on your climate. Very cold -- yes, but if temperate, little advantage.
As for the difference in thickness, you can make it in two sections. My house is what is known as a split entry or raised ranch. It is a very common style here and the lower level is down about 4' below grade with a concrete foundation. The most common finishing method is to frame the concrete section with 2 x 4 and leave the upper section with the 2 x 4 (or
6) as built. Then the top of the concrete is framed with 1 x 3 and a finished shelf is put on top. A little trim and you have a shelf on the outer wall. Paint or stain as desired.
Need 2x3 or 2x4 or it will be very awkward to nail the drywall to something as thin as a 1x3. Yes, it can be done, but it wont be easy and it may not be all that stable.
Where are you climate wise? Thats makes a big difference. You need to insulate the blocks in a cold climate (but in a hot one, not so much as the walls above). I had an apartment (town house) once with a finished garage a bit like this in each unit. They were not finished the same so I'll describe both.
Here's what he did in mine. He actually extended out the cinderblocks a little with some sort of false brick (about 1 inch thick it seemed) and ran a nice molding ontop of it. Then above he used 2 of the sections between the framing to make recessed book shelves. Behind it, he said he had 3 layers of the best 'thin board insulation' he could get. He then layered the inside with some wood that when painted looked lots like drywall. IE: it didnt look like cheap plywood just painted. The walls elsewhere were filled fat as he could with insulation (2 layers of R13? Not really sure) then mine had a nice wood paneling added on 3 walls and the 4th was false brick to the ceiling (the one against the house). Code note: Both had doors to the kitchen and an added door at the old front where the garage was. It was required there.
The other one also used the cinderblock to be a 'feature' but there he used drywall above (same inset book shelves and insulation) and below he used some premade wainscot stained wood panels mounted flush to the blocks. They were slightly higher so he made a little wood strip on hinges in 3ft sections that you could lift it up and the wiring was run through there with the outlets above. No you couldnt open them without a screwdriver. He used some simple brushed brass angle fittings like you might see on an oriental jewlrey box (toddler protection, possibly code required as well). Oh, where I had the full false brick wall, he had wallpaper above the wainscot lower section.
I live in Maryland, near the Bay and Ocean. So I guess our winters are in-between cold and mild.
So far, everyone I've talked to recommends framing out the block, making a ledge or shelf, and then drywall to the existing 2x4.
New question: Using the "ledge" technique, where would the electric outlets go. Do you leave the outlets up high, or do frame out with a
2x3 and use a 4x4 square box that is 1.5" thick?
We were going to eliminate the garage door, put in two large windows. I am going to add a sliding door to the backyard. Do you think code would require another door towards the front as well?
Back to the original question of 1/3 or 2x3 - At 11ft height, either of them would result in a 'bouncy' wall. Needs at least a 2x4 for a 1 plane wall. If 2x3 a block between it and the existing framing at abpit 1/2 span would be needed for a firm feel.
Your choice. As noted before, though, you're going to want to have insulation over that block wall section, too, or it's going to be a real sink in the winter. You can save some thickness there w/ the foam over fiberglass, of course, but there's still going to be room for an outlet box. The other way is, of course, to place them in the block if the wall isn't fill-poured.
It'll require fire egress and probably two exits -- one to the house _may_ count, but as somebody else noted, the correct way to find out is to ask local building code folks.
Extra insulation in the drywall part will pay for itself. The block portion, I think wont be very notable in your winters (not far from mine).
I'd put them just above the ledge or even flush in the ledge if no liquid can get spilled in them. IE: Tell the kids not to sit sodas on the ledge .
No, 2 egresses are sufficient for any codes I have seen. In fact, a large window can count for egress if openable.
You are north enough you need to get good insulating double paned windows and an insulating sort of patio door. If you also add 1 window (need not be huge) on the outer wall, it will provide a fine 'draft' for cooling when the weather is clement.
Like my climate, you can use just fans a good part of spring and summer if you have the right airflow and ceiling fans (you'd want 2 in a room that size).
True but he'll be fine, just may not 'require' a second door vice the large windows. Withthe patio door, he wont need a third one (has one leading inside the house now I am sure).
Interestingly enough, I recall another post from one in Maryland who checked this and like my state, there are no laws on how high or low an outlet has to be. You can put them in the ceiling if you want to . We couldnt seem to find a state that had rules on that. Was about 4 months ago that thread cropped up?
His climate is like mine, just a little colder. If the blocks are thick ones, they are self insulating to a degree. Something over them to make them look nicer would be good though. Painted cinderblock is never that nice looking.
True, but he's apt to find that like here, an attached garage had the same egress rules as any other room. 2 exits. The difference is the garage door constituted the other one.
If you'd like a nice laugh, my house is a case in point for this. Bathrooms as normal have a write off for a smaller window you couldnt egress from. Everything else, including my laundry room has 2. In bedrooms, the second is the window except the smaller 3rd bedroom. No window but before a porch addition, exterior door to back yard was there.
Sometime around 20 years ago, the back of the house was extended with a huge 'all the way across the back except the garage' screened porch. Roof extended at a milder slope. At this point, egress was one patio door from kitchen (which also has door to garage and is mostly open to the livingroom), window at 2nd bedroom to porch, and exterior 3rd beroom door to porch. About 15 years ago, a portion of that porch was closed off to make a 'sunroom' but with plexiglass windows that couldnt open. It was single egress and the local rules made them cut another doorway (silly guy used an interior door) to the remaining screened porch. This made it legal but just barely as the room was classed as 'enclosed porch' so door requirements are not very tight (he could have put up a screen door and been legal as long as the existing 'outside door' remained on the 3rd bedroom.
I've since put a proper door on the sunroom to the porch and redone the sunroom completely with a patio door and window walls to the floor all around the exterior 2 walls.
He also when adding the laundry room extension from the garage to the porch, added no door at the garage side and an interior door at the screened porch side (opposite the sunroom). The kitchen has an exterior door to the garage as it used to be a carport (closed up properly appx 25-30 years ago). Havent bothered to replace that 'hollow core interior one' off the laundry room to the screened porch or put one in on the garage side.
You can tell the garage was a patio, by the high in the wall 'whole house' wall AC unit 220 plug up in the ceiling of the livingroom over the bar, and the square plastered hole in the wooded walls (which we painted dark brown and centered a large picture in so it looks like it was meant to be a display case). It would have dripped to the carport floor.
The operative words here are "to a degree". In a period of ever-rising fuel prices when doing new work that is directly open, there's absolutely no reason to scrimp on insulation for the pittance of effort or $$ to be saved on initial cost compared to the longterm fuel savings and added comfort. That uninsulated block wall will be a sore point forever if let go...that it's yet colder than yours only amplifies the point.
The following text appears in the 2002 NEC, and is marked as added or changed, so it may be a new requirement in that version:
NEC 210.52 "Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets." This section provides requirements for 125 volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. Receptacle outlets required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is part of a luminaire (lighting fixture) or appliance, located within cabinets or cupboards, or located more that 5.5 ft above the floor.
That paragraph doesn't actually say anything about requiring any location; it simply says the section applies to a group of outlets including any that are _not_ over 5.5 ft above the floor. It doesn't prohibit them being above 5.5 ft; only that the section doesn't apply to them if they are.
Yes, but that section is the section which requires receptacles outlets in most rooms at 6'/12' spacing, among other things. So the outlets over 5.5' tall don't count towards the required outlets.
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