Furnace statistics now in

[clare]

$750 a year here in Ontario for gas.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Many contracts prevent you from bailing. They have you locked unless you are going to hook your gas main to a different pipe someplace. You really have to read what you sign up for as some switch to variable rates. Same gas going into the pipe, but the so called gas sellers bill according to your meter. Quite the scam

Another mine field. They like to contract for a specific amount of gas. Go over and you pay a higher rate. Go under and you pay a higher rate. How much gas will you use in each month of the next two years? Have a very good and very bad month of business and you pay a penalty. I can predict two weeks ahead, but not much more the way our business is. .

[clare]

They have you locked in that you can't even change to a different fuel - and here in Ontario before electricity market was deregulated, when you signed up for fixed price gas (for 5 years) you were also compelled to deal with them for your electricity "if and when the market was de-regulated" Contract gas over the last 8 years or so has been something like 15% more than spot market gas. That doesn't ean your bill is 15% more because you still pay the same "storage and delivery" fees, which are paid to your local gas supplier (union gas in waterloo, Kitchener Public Utilities in Kitchener) Kitchener was buying "contract gas" to have a predictable price structure and Kitchener customers paid 90 percent more for the gas portion of their bill last year than Union Gas customers in Waterloo, due to 2009 gas contracts entered into by the city utility.

Spot price in Jan 2010 was about $5.75US per million BTU, and $2.00 US in April 2012. In Sept 2014 it was about $2.60US. There was a short spike in July 2014 to close to $6.00 US. Most of the 2009 contracts would have been for the $6.50 per million BTU range, while the 4 year average spot price was closer to $3.50.

I paid under $750 per year average for my gas bill in Waterloo at spot rate. Across the municipal boundary in Kitchener the same gas bill would have been over $1000. If I had signed a contract with Direct Energy in 2009 my 2014 gas bill would have been $1400, +/-

Looking at the 7 year gas price graph, march 2015 price is $2.80, and it has not been over $6 average on a monthly basis since 2009 - with only 2 spikes over $5 - down from about $14 in 2008.

I don't see natural gas prices reaching 2008 levels again in my lifetime.

[trader_4]

I would assume that they do say that you can't bail. The obvious problem for them is trying to somehow collect if you do bail. Not saying they don't have a case, but is it worth it, practical to go after homeowners scattered all over the place for the amounts involved. And then you have renters, people who move, people who are judgement proof. Seems like it would be hard to collect and they would wind up losing money on a lot of those deals.

If you use the future markets yourself, there is no different rates. You just buy enough futures contracts to equal your typical usage for that year. You may not cover it exactly, but you would be hedged and exposed to a small fraction of the risk that you would otherwise. If you typically use 120 units of energy, and a futures contract is 100 units, you buy one nat gas futures contract. You've now locked in the price. If you actually use 100, you're perfectly hedged and regardless of where gas prices go, you won't be affected. If you use

120, you're about 80% hedged, etc. You're still exposed to prices going up on the 20 units that aren't hedged. It's still a big reduction in risk. All it takes is brokerage account, a couple thousand bucks, and enough gas usage to equal at least one futures contract worth.

[trader_4]

I'm in NJ, last two bills were $200, $225 for nat gas. That's for heat and hot water. House is 3100 sq ft. In summer, with just hot water, it's $17

[philo]

and so are the Winters, I don't usually mind the cold.

Cascade is a beautiful area.

The drive on HWY 33 out to LaCrosse is one of the most beautiful there is.

[philo]

Several things. I only listed the gas portion but to give a better idea, we get a combined gas and electric bill.

That was something like $360 which was about $60 less than the same month last year. To make an honest comparison I was fortunate that the average temps. were within a degree. (The power company provides plenty of statistics.)

Anyway there are several things at play here.

1) My house is 118 years old and though I have replaced most of the windows and done some insulating...the insulation here is not even close to today's standards. 2) My wife keeps the heat on much higher than I would ever consider.

We semi-compromise by keeping the majority of the house around 68F.

In my own office I keep the heat 62,,,,but in her studio which has supplementary electric base-board heating. she cranks it up to 85F

The good news is that in summer, out bills are tiny.

We live near the lake and do not need central air... at most just run one window air conditioner a few days a year.

[philo]

Do you get a discount if you pay in "Spock" five dollar bills?

[philo]

Nice sized house, do you want to store some 1940's console radios for me?

[clare]

Our electric runs about $1400 per year. 2 or 3 computers running

24/7.AC from a few days to a few weeks per year depending on the summer. Occaisionally heating the garage for a few hours at a time to run my lathe in the winter, plus running it in the summer. We have awitched over to virtually all LED with a few CFL except for the garage and yard lights which are incandescent. Upgraded the 30 year old microwave to an inverter model, refrigerator is 22 years old and the freezer is 34, the AC about 8 or 10 (salvaged from the neighbours when they replaced furnace and AC with higher efficiency units - AC was only about 5 years old at the time). It replaced the unit installed when the house was built 40 odd years ago. Wife uses the electric drier all winter, hangs laundry out as much as possible in good weather. Gas water heater, electric range.

We are on time of use billing and my good wife times her laundry and cooking for the low/mid times and avoids peak use.

[Ed Pawlowski]

If it is like the electric setup here, it is easy. No pay, no gas. Although my electric supplier is chosen by me, the charges appear on the consolidated bill and is sent to them by the utility. You can't change suppliers and skip.

Renters may move to a new location, but they won't get service again under the same name unless they pay up. Or you will be required to make an up front deposit.

[philo]

mise by keeping the majority of the house around 68F.

After I thought about this I realized it was not really a question of whether or not the furnace would pay for itself...as I needed to replace it anyway.

It really should have been, was the hi-efficiency type worth the difference in price as compared to an 80% efficiency type.

Since the furnace was only a few hundred dollars more and if I got the 80% furnace I'd have needed a $1000 chimney insert... It paid for itself on the spot.

Even if it's expected life is five years less than the 80% type... it still will have been worth it.

[trader_4]

I think you're right about that. I haven't used a different supplier, but it would make sense. Right now the separate charges for gas and delivery show up on the bill. So, I guess the gas utility collects the money and forwards it on. That would make it easy to enforce.

Yes, sounds right.

[clare]

Here in Ontario you no longer have a choice. Can't install anything other than high efficiency any more.

[philo]

I did not even ask but I think in the US we can still get an 80% furnace.

[Stormin Mormon]

With our ever shrinking freedoms, 80% furnace will go the way of the 3 gal toilet, and the rifle wtih 10 round detachable magazine. And refrigerators with freon.

- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .

. .

[trader_4]

I think you're right. King Obama tried to ban them for states in the colder parts of the country. He got sued, as he frequently does. I think rather than fight, this time they withdrew. That;s unusual and I would expect that they'll try to do it again, maybe via a different means. But, AFAIK, 80% is still legal anywhere.

[Stormin Mormon]

When 80% furnaces are outlawed....

Wait till they start smuggling them in from Mexico.

"Honey! The furnace install team is here....."

- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus .

. .