Furnace Problems - Blowing cold air - Please help

[trytobreak]

Ok guys, so here is an update. And a quite a weird one.

I listened to your suggestions and checked the furnace and tried to figure this one out. I tried to see if it's dirty inside, and it is, dirty. Not entirely hideous, but 'hey' it's 20 years old and I doubt it was ever cleaned. I can't post the picture here, so just imagine, that the level of dirtiness inclines more to the negative side, if you know what I mean :)

So, it's not very clean, dust everywhere inside, but I doubt that it is less dirty than it was this March (when it was still running).

In my opinion this has nothing to do with how dirty it is.

Then I checked the electric box and as Edwin Pawlowski said in this thread, voltage is low. It's not enough, only 14volts... why? I've no clue, because I don't have much knowledge of the topic.

In the mean time, pilot is still working, everything else seems ok, except the burned never goes on. And that is probably caused by not enough voltage, thus gas valve is not opening.

Anyhow, so because I know sh*t about what to do, I called an electrician/furnace repair man.

This guy walks into our basement, kneels next to the furnace, doesn't do anything just looks at the burning pilot, shakes his head and says, that we should immediately turn it off, if we don't want to die. I am looking at him, trying to figure out, how the hell he could find the problem so quickly without checking anything. So I asked him if he could check the electric box and the voltage. He said, that gas valve is not controlled by it and we need to replace the whole unit immediately and if I don't have the money, I should get a loan or financing. I repeated if he can take a look at the box, that there is not enough voltage and that from my point of view, if there are going electric cables from the box to the valve box, it is probably controlling the valve.

This got him really upset, but he checked it and said, that there is a problem with the box, it has only 14volts :) So, I asked if the transformer is not working. He said: most probably not.

So, he was a bit shaking at this point and told me that it's old, dirty. That cleaning will cost me $600 and the new unit $2000. That he won't repair electric box, because even if it worked, he doesn't want to have anything to do with the fact it will kill us afterwards... and so on and on... wouldn't let me say one word.

When he eventually stopped, I asked if he can clearly tell what the problem is. He said: electric box and that it's dirty. I said: I will clean it up, you repair the box. He said: No, got pissed, closed the gas going to our furnace and left totally pissed. I was walking right behind him, asking: "And, how much do we owe you?" He replied: "Nothing, if something happens here and you died, cheque/ bill would be a proof I was here and they could put me to jail!

Ufff... so he gave me a scare at the point where he would accept any cash, until then he seems only like a regular asshole, trying to sell me a unit without even wanting to take a look at what the problem is.

Can someone tell me what my next step should be? Should I call another electrician and let him repair the transformer from 120 to 24volt and run the unit, or forget it and buy a new furnace?

I am kind of worried now, because of what he said and he is definitely a bigger expert than I am, but I have to think logically too...

What do you suggest?

[jim]

Suggest you are being taken i have my gas ticket and this man is wrong about the valve suggest you phone your locle gas company tell them the story and see who they suggest or see if they will fix

[trytobreak]

Yeah, that is what I was thinking. Calling someone from another company. I hope someone can actually fix the problem, rather than scaring me without any obvious reason. This person seemed like a real ass, right from the moment he walked in to our house. Only problem I have with this whole story is, that he didn't take any cash. That is what is creating this whole dilemma in me, otherwise it would be more like a visit from the sales man. Hey, maybe this is one of their tactics, expecting us to call back and get a new furnace, maybe they're getting some bonuses for sales. On the other hand, if he is right, sh*t, you know... I am not prepared to die this winter :) Not yet, I am only 33 and I'd rather see myself retiring rich one day :)

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Did he at least kiss you and use a good lubricant?

Call a more reputable service man. This is a perfecft example of why calling a pro is not always the answer. Now, it may be possible that there is some other problem, such as the heat exchanger, but this guy should have been able to point out the problem and explain why it would cause concern.

Normaly , I'd say replace the transformer, but to put you mind at ease, get a knowledgable person to check it out. Does your gas company offer service?

[trytobreak]

I am not sure if they do. It's 11pm here, so I will find out tomorrow. Thanks guys. Any other suggestions would be more than welcome. Joe

[PaPaPeng]

I had the same problem for a week now, pilot light on but no flame. Then after some heroic fiddling around I have flame but have to turn it off by hand, that is turn the regulator control from gas ON to PILOT to shut off the main burners. As luck would have it the fall weather turned really nice after an early near freeze. Therefore I was no longer under the gun to fix it immediately. If I needed heat I just turn it on long enough to warm up. I'm mostly at home all day and night so there's no problem of anything (water pipes) freezing up.

I'll go straight to the things you can check out. In my case the final problem was that the insulation for 24Vac wire leads to the upstairs thermostat had baked hard and cracked. 25 years next to the hot burner section of the furnace does that. It shorted taking out the old style mercury switch thermostat. I'll have to replace that. These are no longer available, mercury is a harzardous material under current regulations I shall get a non programmable electronic thermostat. I hate the programmable type as I can never remember how to reset them for daylight saving time for example.

1. Go check all your wires and replace any that seem less than prime condition Check that the 24Vac transormer and measure the voltages to ensure they are all there. Measure the voltage output yourself. The

14V reported by your service guy doesn't sound right. The label on your regulator should specify this (24Vac). If so replace with a 24 volt unit.

1. In case your thermostat is shot go to the furnace regulator and disconnect one of the two thermostat wires on the regulator terminal assigned to the thermostat. Then jumper the disconnected terminal to the transformer (ie close the circuit without passing through the thermostat.) If the burners fire up you have a bad thermostat. Replace.

Correction. Do this jumper test first as this is easy to do.

1. Give the gas regulator a good thump with a rubber mallet. This may loosen a stuck valve if that is the cause of your problem. That's what the service technician did. It didn't solve my problem but that's something you can do yourself and check it out.
2. Call your gas company emergency service to check out your furnace. I was so freaked out by the horror servicemen from hell stories (eg yours) that I resisted calling one. My gas company ATCO Gas of Canada has a wonderful 24 hour emergency service. They came for all my three calls (long story) within 3 hours.

4:1 The first call was when I lost my hot water heater flame too after having shut off the gas supply to work on the furnace. The darn heat regulator switch wouldn't turn far enough for me to reset ON the safety shut off. All it required was to pop off the swich cover and turn the switch stem by hand. He had too many calls and wouldn't work on my furnace. No charge. 4:2 I couldn't for the life of me budge the gas regulator with a big wrench to unscrew and replace it. I dared not use more force as the burner manifold was already starting to twist and I dreaded breaking anything. So I made another service call. Voltage checks OK. Good thump didn't loosen stuck valve. Said I would have to replace the regulator. I was too muddled to take up his offer to do the job then and there. (I found out in 4:3 that it would have cost me only around $5 more than I paid for a new regulator) I told him my problem with uninstalling the regulator. He did it for me. I'll buy the new unit and install it myself. No charge. 4.3 Bought a new regulator $183 incl tax and installed it. No main burner flame. Voltages checked out OK. I had already spent enough effort and time to have lost track of my trouble shooting steps and options. Called ATCO Emergency Service. Guy came. Spotted crappy thermostat wires. Did the jumper thingy. Saw burn marks on thermostat dial. Problem solved. 30 minutes. No charge.

No high pressure sales from any of the three service guys to buy unasked for equipment.

================================================= From your post there won't be much youcan do besides the electrical checks and the big thump. At least you will be satisfied that if its a regulator problem swapping in a new regulator is the only fix a HVAC guy can legally do. Phone up your gas company's emergency service and find out what services they provide. The three different guys I had were the most pleasant and helpful guys I have come across. They didn't bat an eye when I told him my attempts at repairs and my intent to replace the regulator myself. This gave me confirmation that what I did was not some dumbfool thing.

Their emergency service is to restore gas service and simple fixes for home gas fueled equipment - furnaces, water heaters, fireplaces. If your installation needed major work requiring a tradesman to correct that's not his job and he'll advise you. ================================================

I went to the appliance parts store to get a replacement regulator before attempting to do any fancier repairs. My gas regulator model is found in

model identified as SKU V800A1161.

The parts supplier can only sell the complete factory assembled unit, no sub assemblies. By law he cannot sell any unit that has been disassembled and reassembled. Once installed (used) he cannot take it back for a refund. The service technician says the same thing. He can only check the voltages and connections or change a whole regulator. He cannot open up the regulator to do repairs. He doesn't even know how the parts inside work though like me he must have opened up a scrapped one to self educate. I shall write this up in due course on what's inside and decide for yourself if you want give parts repairs a shot.

Actually its quite simple. On the bottom of the regulator are four long screws. Undo them, the cover plate (has smaller parts) and the bottom half assembly should come loose (jiggle it) to expose a teeter-totter assembly. The rubber valve at one end of this assembly covers a gas orifice. Mine was slightly stuck and popped open when I took off the bottom assembly. Had I not been alert I would have likely missed noticing the stickiness. Not that it matters since loosening it is the idea. The other subassemblies of the regulator are very simple, non moving and built like a tank. They won't wear out. There's nothing to repair. Messing with them will likely introduce problems that were not there originally. All parts are keyed to prevent incorrect reassembly.

If you ever do major work like I shut off the main gas supply and the electrical power to the furnace before working on it. Shutting the gas off for an extended period causes the safety shutoff at the regulator next to the gas meter to set. Very little gas flows into the gasline. The dinnerplate sized gas regulator has a center stem (like a mushroom stem) Unscrew the thimble shaped cap at the tip. It will reveal a metal stem. Pull on it and it will feel like popping a suction cup. This resets the safety and lets the gas flow into the line again.

[PaPaPeng]

My game plan was if the estimate from a repair guy exceeded $500 I would toss out the existing furnace and install one of those high efficiency ones myself. Mine looks new (well maintained) but its already 28 years old thereabouts. When the heat exchanger tubes give out, as they must some day not too far into the future, they will no longer be replaceable . By law the stores are not allowed to to stock them as replacement parts or sell any. Same with that $183 regulator. If faulty, replace only, no repairs.

Now if you HVAC guys can say this nicely, that your hands are tied by law (be prepared to show printed copy to customer) and give a best effort to do the simple fixes first, then perhaps you will get a much less hostile reaction from your customers. Explain what you did in repairs and why they didn't work. Gas fitting is not brain surgery that only HVAC guys can understand. Explain the problem solving procedures so that the customer knows they were something he could or could not have done. We all want to save a few bucks and this knowledge will satisfy the homeowner that its better to call you for fixes he'd realise as beyond his abilities.

Then give them the "bad news" a $3000 replacement or some equally shocking figure. Give them the name of your supplier so that they can check on prices. And also the opportunity to select a particular model. The customer expects to pay you something extra and reasonable as a markup for you to order and deliver the hardware for them. And to get rid of the old one. You charge service fees accordingly. The dollar amount won't be pleasant. But an honest breakdown of the costs that the customer can check on avoids a lot of unwarranted suspicions and bad impressions.

I went to a major appliance parts supplier store and they had a number of furnaces on display including the high efficiency ones. The panels had been removed so it was easy for me to make a close inspection of its assembly modules and installation requirements. To install a high efficiency furnace is a lot easier than to service one. Specified PVC ducting for the air intake and burner exhaust. The gas connection and the electrical connection. That's it.

The new furnaces are shorter than the old gas furnaces. A transition plenum will be needed to connect the shorter) new furnace to the existing hot air plenum. My intended adaptation will be to instead make a steel stand to raise the furnace to the existing plenum. That way the bottom of the furnace will be off the floor and free from any dampness or standing water. My existing furnace is resting on spare aluminium bath door tracks and its free from rust and grime.

I chatted with the store personnel and they didn't bat an eye on my intent to do the installation myself. In fact they gave a lot of pointers on things I should do, such as resizing the hot water heater exhaust vent (to a 4 inch liner) as my existing stack will be too large. I found the same information in the installation manual. But I still appreciated the information as it gives me the right information to make my installation plans in the meantime.

The basic high efficiency furnace model is $1300. I can budget for that.

[jhtemple]

I posted a few replies ago with my almost identical problem. I had a professional come in and they located the problem. It was the pressure switch. So basically the first blower would start...then the pilot light would ignite...then the main gas would only come on for just a second...followed my the main fan. The pilot light would remain on and the furnace would act as if nothing was wrong. Once the pressure switch was replaced..all was well