Furnace hot surface ignitor pricing question

[JB]

Maybe some of you furnace servicers out in the world could educate me on this.

I had to place service call for furnace after waking in on recent chilly morning to find inside temp was almost as low as out.

After a pair of guys poked around inside the 12-year-old York, studied my wiring diagram and the troubleshooting sequence in the owner's manual, they decided to try replacing the hot surface ignitor because it didn't look very bright. It would glow, but failed to ignite the gas and the sequence would stop at that point.

That did the trick. House all cozy again. But the bottom line on the bill was a shock -- $281 after preventive maintenance agreement discount (had PM done on the furnace just three weeks ago. Lotta help that was, for the $159 investment.)

My question (which the dealer hasn't answered yet): Is $281 an unreasonable price to pay for a part that I've found online for $52-$78 and a local parts place quoted for $54. Or should that have been broken down to itemize part and labor? There was a separately itemized $69 trip charge.

[Mikepier]

It does sound a little on the high side. Depends on where you live. Also, if they had a quick response time to your service call. Sometimes that is worth a lot too, especially if you have kids in the house and the temps are below freezing. The $69 trip charge I think should have been waived. Usually the trip charge is the minimum service charge just to come to your house. Similiar to whan a mechanic has to troubleshoot a problem on your car, they charge a minimum fee, but they waive it if you let them fix the problem, then its just total time and parts. But it's not highway robbery. Rest assured you had qualified technicians come to your house and fix the problem right the first time.

[Puddin' Man]

The hot surface ignitor and the flame sensor are the 2 most commonly replaced parts.

Anyone who knows the basic sequence of operations could identify need of such very quickly.

I'm not in touch with what they commonly charge nowdays, but I'd personally consider anything above 40 (call) + 60 (part)

• 20 (labor) = 0 to be exorbitant.

Of course, they don't like folks like me ...

Cheers, Pudd>Maybe some of you furnace servicers out in the world could educate me on >this.

[Tony Hwang]

Hmmm, I got a new HSI from eBay for less than 30.00 including S&H to keep as a spare. Last week my alarm system needed a new stand-by battery which was not holding charge due to age. Monitoring center was bugging me to send out a service tech and they said it'll cost but don't know how much. It was sending trouble code(for low battery). I told them forget it. Went out and bought a new replacement for 15.00, put it in. Everything back to normal. I am sure ADT would have charged more than 15.00.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi, The very first time our new Carrier furnace tried to heat the house, it failed. A guy came out to take a look and didn't have a clue. Zilch in basic electronics knowledge. I had to direct him what to do, LOL. At least this guy did not hate me.

[Bud--]

They might double their cost of the part to a "list price" (when I was doing electrical service that was not uncommon - partly justified by the cost of carrying parts on the truck).

How long did the service call take, how much time were you billed for and what is the hourly rate. Sound like they may have taken longer than a competent tech should to diagnose it - as Tony said (or maybe not). Remember an hourly rate covers not just the salary of the tech but social security and other benefits, cost of the truck and cost of the central office. A trip charge, I presume, covers transit time and costs like dispatching and billing. Did they charge for the time of both men - that would not be reasonable. Could be you got 2 because neither of them was too sharp or 2nd was being trained.

If the PM was just routine yearly maintenance it may be annoying but not be relevant unless a brighter tech should have noticed the less bright ignitor. A 'reasonable' cost for service may seem 'unreasonably' high. An itemized bill would help figure it out.

bud--

[CJT]

Let me say it this way:

I'd call somebody different next time, and not renew the PM contract.

[Bubba]

With math like that, its quite obvious why you dont have your own business. You wouldn't last but a few months, then tax time, insurance time, salary, truck payments, repairs, workers comp, medical, numerous local government taxes, tool depreciation, training, liscensing, gasoline, vacation pay and profit monies would all be due and there you would be with 2 pennies in your hand. Bubba

[RP]

Yeah, they should've only charged $54 and donated all their time and overhead, even paid the taxes for you. Everyone knows that HVAC companies are non-profit organizations operating on donations from generous citizens and from government grants. How dare they try to make it into a private business!

Richard Perry

[Al Moran]

It's very reasonable. ver heard of a thing called overhead?

[John]

Huh? Nobody was suggesting anything of the sort. Please try to read more carefully.

Huh?

So gouging a customer exhorbitant prices is ok, because it's the HVAC business. I would switch companies immediately, not only for their high billing, but for their useless "preventative maintenance" service.

[RP]

Don't let the door hit you.

Richard Perry

[Kathy]

billing, but for their

Preventative maintenance couldn't really prevent the igniter from going bad. And how do you know the tech didn't recommend moving the dryer out of his heater room?

[Puddin' Man]

Jeez. I heard all that and more. Many, many times.

I don't wanna be in that business. That business has more problems than the Chinese Army can shake a stick at. In a month of Sundays.

I just wanna be able to fix mine proper, keep mine running well. For reasonable money. This is something that many shops are not in a position to do (per your little diatribe).

Cheers, Puddin'

[John]

Thank you for your reasoned analysis. I almost thought you might know what you were talking about in an earlier post. Good day.

[Jim Redelfs]

No.

The price MIGHT be a bit high, particularly under different circumstances, but two technicians got you warm again in a hurry.

Given that the repair was done by a (presumably) professional, reputable company, you probably also have an implied warranty on their work. Some monetary value must be attributed to that fact.

You could have perused the classified ads or "asked around" and found someone that does such work "on the side" for less, but there would likely be no warranty and the chances that the job would be done promptly and properly would less.

If your furnace ignitor lasts through NEXT winter, I'd say you got your money's worth on a 12-year-old furnace repair.

Unless a MAJOR component is replaced, you should not place so much emphasis on the part or their charge for it. Grossing-up parts costs is a tradition in the service industry and has been for years.

I'll bet that, if you had had the part already purchased and waiting for them, their total charge would have been less, but not as much as $54 less.

I get the feeling that, even if the entire bill had been itemized, but the BOTTOM LINE was the same, you would feel as though you had been overcharged.

That's understandable. $281 to replace a small, relatively inexpensive part is high. If the fix lasts and you stay warm, it won't seem as high as time goes by.

Also, you can always request an ITEMIZATION of charges from any service person.

[JB]

Thanks for the reasonable responses -- and I hope the sarcasm from some doesn't come from anyone who actually works with the public (damn, there are flamers lurking everywhere.)

I know businesses have to make a profit. But I'm developing the opinion that preventive maintenance contracts on modern furnaces and ACs are a cushion for HVAC outfits' overhead. Sorta like extra undercoating or extended warranties a car dealer will try to sell, or those service contracts store clerks offer when you buy even a moderately priced small applicance.

One responder to my original post said a PM check probably wouldn't have spotted the less-bright ignitor. I couldn't expect that the techs would have spotted the capacitors in the furnace or central AC or the ignition control module that failed soon after PM checks, either (damned high-tech solid-state stuff).

On my PM bill, the tech commented that the draft induction blower felt hot. Now I'm thinking, that may have been because it was working harder than normal because the HSI was beginning to fail, causing the blower motor to run for several cycles. But the trained profession just made a note rather than trying to figure out why. We talked briefly about how it would probably be a pricey part to replace if it failed -- maybe in the $400s.

As for the repair bill, I might not have had as much of a concern if it HAD been itemized. But all the tech wrote was "replace hot surface ignitor," and under the subtotal was the trip charge. Ten years ago, when the same part failed, a different company waived the trip charge, and instead itemized the part and repair labor costs. So, gee, why am I suspicious about the cost of this job? (Now I'll wait for the inflation argument -- don't get me started.)

OK, rant over. I feel a wee bit better. But I still need to go down and pound some nails. The keyboard won't take that kind of abuse.

Jim

[Bubba]

PM contracts are not a cushion for overhead. They are services meant to keep your system running trouble free as opposed to someone that calls when its 10 degrees out on Christmas Day. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. Many variables there to affect the outcome. One thing they are NOT is money makers. They are loss leaders unless the sale of a humidifier or some other service comes out of it. You can believe in them and use them or Not. That is your decision. I also give a 15% discount on any of my services or parts when you purchase the contract. I also take care of your call first as opposed to a new customer that has not "invested" with me. You will also NEVER get an overtime charge with me as long as you have a PM contract. You will also receive more time per PM visit on your equipment than a new customer because I schedule the PM visits when Im not busy and can afford more time with you. The new customer calls me on the first hot or cold day when I receive my highest call volume. I cant afford lengthy time with those customer. That is the time to "fix it fast" and move on to the next call.

Thus, the reason your igniter failed. It breaks when it breaks. You cant control it.

Then get online and order a couple spare igniters and a spare inducer motor and change it yourself when it breaks.

Sorry, you dont get it itemized. I dont right up bills detailing every penny spent. You are calling for a repair and I charge you a fee. Its Flat Rate Pricing. You will get the price of the Diagnostic fee quoted over the phone before I ever show up. If thats agreed, I then show up, find you problem and quote you the total repair price BEFORE any repairs are made. If agreed upon, I do the work. If not, I collect the Diagnostic fee and Im on my way so you can make another decision. Thats it, one diagnostic fee and one repair fee. Thats all the further you get it broken down. Im not there for you to compare, and haggle. You need to work on that gig on your own time.

Whatever it takes. Pound on whatever you want. Bubba

[Jim Redelfs]

Oops, sorry, I forgot: Your muther wears COMBAT BOOTS!!

Hehehehe! Modern day anger management, fer sure! I like that. :)

I don't know how old you are but, at age 52, I can still remember that, when I was growing up, the furnace NEVER needed repair. We used the same thermostat for the 23 years I lived there.

Now that *I* am paying the bills, everything seems to be short-lived and/or disposable. I replaced the programmable thermostat that was installed when the house was new after only 8 years or so. After the 14-year-old furnace's REPLACEMENT motor crapped-out after only two years, I just replaced the whole system, inside and out.

Now I'm going to have to repaint the house again in a couple years. A window frame is rotting and two windows have lost their dual-pane seal and are nicely "condensed" in-between the panes. This sux!!

I want to live in a condo!

[RP]

John wrote:

Sorry, but you didn't strike me as somebody who was up to debating the issue. If you change your mind and decide that you would like a fuller understanding of pricing practices and of the virtues of PM service, then you can start by reading Bubba's post. Our PM contracts are virtually identical to his, although I don't know what he charges for his. While it is possible that nothing is wrong with the system at the time of the service, there is OTOH always the possibility that serious issues may be found and corrected before more serious issues result, up to and including death. OTOH, you strike me as the type who would rather risk the lives of his loved ones on the bet that nothing bad is going to happen. Trust me, mechanical and electrical systems do break, if they didn't, then I'd be out of a job. Also houses do indeed burn. Try reading the paper once in awhile. Only a fool says "It'll never happen to ME!". Granted, the actual odds will be in your favor, so if you choose not to have PM done then that is entirely your choice. Those odds don't however make PM's useless. I have personally found issues during PM's that would have without doubt resulted in structural fires, floods, asphyxiation, etc. For some of those customers the PM service literally saved their lives, for others it saved their houses from structural damage. A simple condense leak can do thousands of dollars worth of damage overnight. I doubt you could convince everyone that PM's are "useless", you haven't even made a case, you only expressed an empty sentiment. That sentiment was very telling; you're a cheapskate. While you can rationalize it any way you wish, you are exactly the type to try their best to f*ck a contractor, all the while ranting mindlessly about how they were f****ng you. I despise your kind.

Note "follow-up to" alt.stupidity deleted, asswipe.

I almost thought you might know what you were

And you as well.

Richard Perry