furnace BTU

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On 12/25/2013 9:00 PM, micky wrote:

Makes no sense. I replaced a 33 year old oil burner and save about $900 a year in oil costs. I've done that for the past three years now. So, for fear of losing a $500 board you think I should spend an extra $900 a year? The boys at Mobile/Exxon thank you for the business.
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That's not the only reason. Too many things to go into.
I shold add that my friends from NYC all lived in apartments, and I was the first to get a house, and I'm showing them how nice it is to have a house, with no AC, no water, and no electricity. I don't think I convinced them.

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On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 9:55:05 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

who have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them . As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to sa y that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is nothing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes o r power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than o nce.




Whether it makes sense depends on the yearly operating cost difference and the payback time period. You have oil, which is a lot more expensive than natural gas. He may also be located in GA or similar, where the fuel usage isn't that great. Instead of saving $900 a year, he might only save $250, which makes a big difference.
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On 12/27/2013 8:15 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

What does the price of natural gas have to do with this? He said he has an oil fired furnace. He also said he is afraid to change because he could blow out a $500+ circuit board. That is a rather poor excuse. Sure, you have to run the numbers, but to say you are afraid of an expensive repair makes no sense at all to keep spending it on oil. Run the numbers, then lets talk.

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On Friday, December 27, 2013 10:48:16 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

There are two people here talking about not replacing an old furnace because of concerns about the repair cost of the increased complexity, possible blown boards from surges, etc. It started with hrho, who said he has a gas furnace. Micky has an oil one. I agree, it's all about the numbers. Part of the number analysis is easy. That's estimating the cost savings on fuel. But how do you factor in repair cost of the new high efficiency units vs the old unit? I don't know that it's even possible to get data to analyze, eg what the actual failure rate of the new furnaces are vs the old. That is what you'd need to estimate the total ownership cost. And if you're biased against getting a high eff to begin with, you could come up with any estimate to justify it.
I was concerned about the possible higher cost of failure on the more complex new system, ECM motors in particular. But with the federal tax credits, rebates, etc in 2010 it made sense to me to replace a 25 year old furnace because it was at it's expected EOL. As I posted previously, in 2 seasons of usage of the new versus one season of the old, I saved over 40% in gas usage. But part of that is I have the thermostat set lower now too. I should also be saving on electricity, because the new one has an ECM blower. And I'm for sure saving on AC too. Still, depending on the total install cost, versus how much your fuel bills are, repair costs, etc it could take 10+ years to recover. I did mine because I figured with the tax credit it was a good deal and who knows how much longer the 25 year old system was going to last.
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If he lives somewhere where his fuel usage is low - say he only uses $400 of oil a year, and his furnace is 45% efficient and a new super-duper oil furnace is 90% efficient, he will only stand to save something like $200 a year on oil. If that new furnace costs him $2000 installed,, his payback is 10 years - and if he blows only ONE $500 board in those 10 years, his payback goes to 12.5 years. Blow a second board, and the payback goes to 15 years - aproxemately the expected lifespan of many of today's good high efficiency furnaces.
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On Friday, December 27, 2013 1:15:21 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

It would be cold day in hell when you could get a high eff furnace installed for $2000, at least around these parts, NJ. When I went out to get quotes for a new furnace and AC, they were from $8K to $11K. The equipment cost is about half furnace, half AC.
So, I think we're all on the same page. The payback depends mostly on the cost of fuel saved and the climate.
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It was 7 years go I had goodman furnace, with ac, and new gas line dug, for $5k. No problems yet. Had to switch from oil furnace, 50 years old.
Greg
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On 12/27/2013 02:26 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:
[snip]

The Trane furnace / AC I got installed this April cost a little over $7K ($7099.89).
BTW, the papers that come with the (natural gas) furnace list both input and output BTU.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us
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On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 9:00:30 PM UTC-5, micky wrote:

o have put in newer furnaces and have had all sorts of problems with them. As an electrical engineer, I love to try new technology, but I have to say that I will keep this furnace for as long as it holds out since there is no thing electronic to go wrong when there is are nearby lightning strikes or power surges, both of which have taken out neighbors furnaces more than onc e.

If it has electronics on it, three things come to mind:
1 - Those electronics have apparently lasted 34 years without failing from surges.
2 - What a company charges for replacement parts often doesn't have much relation to their cost. Without actual data on what a board for a high efficiency unit costs versus your ancient furnace board, it's pure speculation.
3 - What's your experience been with all the other electronics in the house? Are they all failing from surges? If not, then why would the new furnace be any different than all the other electronics? The most vulnerable would be things like TV, cable modems, phones, etc that are connected not only to AC, but to other lines that go outside the house too. A furnace would be more like the refrigerator, oven, etc., which are usually far less likely to get damaged by surges.

Which kind of helps prove my point. I'll bet the control board for a modern high eff furnace doesn't cost much more. Probably the most expensive part would be if you have a ECM blower, but you can get high eff furnaces with a conventional blower if you want.
but I whined and he sold me a transformer instead

Whether it makes sense to replace an old inefficient furnace with a new high eff one depends on your climate, fuel costs, payback period etc. I'd say to not do so for fear that the new system is going to fail due to surges and cost a lot to fix is one part of the equation, but you have to factor everything else in. And for surges, a proper whole house surge protector for $100 is something every home should have today. With that the probability of surge damage to the electronics will be greatly reduced.
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On 12/27/2013 08:32 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I never lost a furnace, but I did take a big hit at my last house a few years back. I did use a whole house surge protector and also most electronics were on cheap surge-protected power strips. Some of my neighbors lost some big dollar items; my total loss was one ancient power strip (which was on an ungrounded circuit), the control board for the dishwasher, and the power supply board for an electrostatic air filter. Total cost of parts to repair was less than insurance deductible, so I didn't claim. Dominion Power told us to pound sand even though I'm certain that the issue could have been prevented by more aggressive tree trimming (a common issue around here.)
Subsequent to that incident I installed another surge protector on the recep feeding the air filter and dehumidifier; touch wood, I haven't lost anything else since.
nate
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replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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I guess I'm either too lazy to go to the trouble to design a suitable prote ction circuit, or too cheap to consider spending some money, or, probably b oth. I just hate the way everything is thrown away because there is someth ing that maybe is better available.
I fix old "Italian style" Christmas tree light strings, adding a couple of sockets and bulbs to 50 light sets to convert them to 52 light sets. The 4 % drop in voltage doesn't dim the lights noticeably, and they don't burn ou t nearly as fast. Then I donate them to Goodwill, along with severaL spare bulbs for each set in a paper bag attached to the set. Easy to do if you understand about hot and neutral 120V circuits and use a handitester to fol low the hot lead to wherever there is a break. What can be confusing is wh ere a bulb is burned out, but the little shorting stub wound around the fil ament supports fails to close/burn through sufficiently to short out the la mp, but closes enough that the capacitance allows some 120V to leak thru, j ust enough that the handitester responds, but with a noticeably weaker resp onse than full on or full off. Those defects can take twice as long to fin d and fix. Good to do on a rainy or snowy January day.
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On 12/25/2013 4:23 PM, snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net wrote:

When I was helping my late friend GB do residential HVAC work. Many customers in rural areas were having capacitors and circuit boards blown out in their HVAC systems here in Alabamastan. I got him to start installing hard wired surge arresters on the condensing unit and air handler to protect them, especially the very expensive control boards in the heat pumps. The new super duper high efficiency systems that used no more power than a night light were very expensive to repair when a power surge hit them. 5 years after I started installing hard wired surge arresters on residential HVAC systems, the hard wired surge arresters showed up in all the HVAC and refrigeration supply houses in the area. Before that, I had been installing them for many years on commercial systems and got them at electrical supply houses. Me and GB never had to replace another blown capacitor or circuit board for a rural customer who had us install the surge arresters. I know guys who will say, "I don't want to install protection, I want lighting to damage things so I can make more money fixing them." Of course when it hits a large area, many systems go down and the fellow can't get to them then the customer calls someone else and may never call him back again. ^_^
TDD
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