Forgotten receptacle wiring tracked all way back into fuse box and to target

[bent]

I traced the cabling back into the fuse box. This receptacle box (the one I want to change the broken plastic on) has two lines coming into/ going out of it: a 14/3 (black/white/red, + gnd) going back to the fuse box, and a

14/2 (black/white, + gnd) going to a single under the counter type ~20W fluorecent light with a little on/off button. So for a simple plug ( a 5W clock radio), and a simple light it has some pretty specail wiring, and probably a waste since it is an original fusebox short on spots (none left). Anyways, ok, maybe it was a special place before the kitchen remodel.

The 14/3 cable going back to the fuse box has a white, a red, a black, and the bare copper ground wire. The red is connected to the fuse on the right, and the black is connected to the fuse on the left, of a double fuse holder. You must remove both the fuses to re and re just one. I am just assuming the white and gnd are wired into the fuse box as they normally would be, but I haven't traced them. Don't start with 220!!

The first/only time I tried wiring the new plastic receptacle in I had the wires wrong and vaporized the fuse. I believe it was the fuse on the left (the black wire) , if it matters. Also, due to my current IE settings I do not have access to my original post if any of that matters. I can.

So I broke the connector on the hot (brass) side of the new receptacle, as it was broken (on the same side) of the original receptacle. The original receptacle had the push in type of wire connector on the back of it (4 push-in locations in total in the 4 corners on the rear of the receptacle). The new replacement receptacle doesn't have push-ins on the back. So where does that wire go? It was black. there was only one wire pushed in to any connector on the back and it was black (I'm very sure, of both, 1 and black, I think) I don't know which black wire it was, but it doesn't matter, right.

So: Bare ground to bare ground to bottom ground screw of the receptacle. The two are to the rear of the box, and another single wire to the receptacle screw) White wire to white wire on the silver coloured/unbroken side of the new receptacle. So they become connected, as are the grounds.

Q>

Red wire from fuse box to where? Black wire (from the fuse box) to where. Black wire (to supply power to the single, 20W F. light) to where?

All I can assume is that the black and red hot wires from the fuse box are on opposite sides of the broken tab. I do not know if it matter which (black/red hot supply) wire goes where (top or bottom of broken tab), and I do not know if it matters where the black (hot) wire to the light goes. (with the black or red wires of the hot fuse box supply), or to the top or bottom of the tab, or which combination, if any is important)

[Rich256]

Why do you say that? Sure sounds like a 220 circuit. Black is one phase and red is the other.

Do you have a meter to measure the voltage? Measure between black and red at the fuse.

So on your outlet use black or red. Or assuming 220, if you break the tab and use both you have a different phase on top and bottom.

[Wayne Whitney]

First, if you have fully traced the circuit and know all the loads on it, you can wire the circuit any way that does what you want and is code compliant.

Now we can say with fair certainty how the original circuit was wired: red and black wires from the fuse box to opposite hot sides of the receptacle (with the connector tab broken), black wire to the light connected to one side of the receptacle (either side, doesn't matter).

Unfortunately this is not a code compliant way to wire the circuit now. Two problems:

If you have a multi-wire branch circuit (two opposite hot phases each serving 120V loads with a common neutral), then the connectivitiy of the neutral can not depend on the device being installed. This just means you have to take the two neutrals and pigtail them to a short piece of wire that is then connected to the receptacle.

If you have a multi-wire branch circuit, then when there are any devices that are connected to both phases (like your split receptacle), the circuit needs to be opened by a single overcurrent device.

For this second requirement, if the circuit is protected by circuit breakers, this means that a handle tie is required so that both circuit breakers open at once. I don't know how this requirement is applied to fuses: my instinct would be that you can't use two separate fuses, so you simply can't wire a split receptacle at all. Perhaps someone more experienced than I am can comment.

As to what to do to comply with the second requirement, more information about the receptacle is required. Where is it located? Do you need the extra capacity that the split receptacle requires, or will the total current draw at the receptacle be less than the 15 amps the 14 gauge wire can provide?

Cheers, Wayne

[bent]

whatb I have learned and where I could go with this: i guess whats going on is the top plug is dependant on one fuse, and the bottom plug is dependant on the other fuse. And the light would also be connected to just one of those hot supplies, and its fuse. Wrt the code, the outright safety, and my physical wiring, I will want to do what apparently looks correct (for sight inspection purposes), and is safe, then easiest. The two whites, since connected together, you say I need to attach a short third wire into a marrett then to just one of the screws. Sort of like the ground is. Easy enough . Or is it good to just attach each white one to each of the two screws? i.e. Are you suggesting I do that with the black from the light and either red or black from the fusebox. I cannot fully understand what you're saying. Whatever I do I want to to be as safe as before first. Not crazy safe. Not necc even code safe. safe. And wrt whats going on further, i don't understand you yet; thats me.

I'm in Toronto, ON, CA. Seperate residential home. Before the F light, this location may have been for fridge; or another main kitchen power supply, but now its just is just a single 20W Flourescent light mounted under the kitchen cabinets, nothing else to it. The plug top or bottom is only permanently connected to a clock radio. Its above the countertop, so

30" + 8" from the floor. Maybe a mixer on occasion, or just to check something is working. Its at the front exit doorway (without door). The F light is directly above the plug (a foot offset to the right) and about a foot higher than the plug, and there is 3 or 5 feet between the two, and the only (double) std. kitchen sink, a litle lower farther to the smae right, and none else for 30 feet. There is a dishwasher directly below the counter centered about where the F light is, but on a different circuit. The fridge is directly opposite. Everything is std, furhter. Any more needed?

To be honest, I may need an ok like "you're at least safe enough" for the wiring I chooses, cuz you've lost me, and I may not need be so tickedy-boo about pigtailing, etc. If I think wrapping two solid 14 ga wires around the same receptacle screw is safe enough (because of proximity to sides of steel box when installed, unless otherwise obviously visually code wrong, or unsafe, I'm willing to do it.

What about: (wrt safety at least, if I put it all together like this): black (from fusebox fuse A) and black (from F light) to the top screw (broken hot tab) red (from fusebox fuse B) to the bottom screw (broken hot tab) white (either to fuse box or F light) to one steel screw (intact tab) other (other either to fuse box or F light) white to other steel screw (intact tab)

[Toller]

Gosh I hope this is an artless troll; but if it isn't please get professional help before you vaporize the house.

[Wayne Whitney]

I should be more specific: the problems I pointed out are violations of the US NEC. I'm not familiar with the Canadian code, the CEC, so I can't say what it requires.

Cheers, Wayne

[bent]

Yes I always spend hours of my own time creating fictitious questions to get answers to the things I care nothing about. It is rare that I get instructions rivaling differential calculus on how to make my posts better, or exclaiming that it is not intelligible. I am never left totally confused and purged of questions. It always becomes very obvious I am just out of my league. so, Thanks & btw What is a troll?

[bent]

Actually I have more questions. And I may have spoke too soon.

Q1>

Assuming this gets wired correctly eventually (this is a real type of circuitry) can I install only one fuse without the other?

Q2>

I may have stumbled on another light that may be coinnected to this somehow, but I'm not sure how to check. I was out in the backyard and there is a dual yellow floodlight mounted high on the back of the house with a motion detector. Wayn ont eh other side of the house. I cannot get the light to come on, and I don't know why. It has a motion sensor and a light sensor, to know when to come on if there is motion by the pool, but only in the dark. It may be a bulb, but it probly, by odds not be both. Could it be that both would not work if one burnt out. Its just 2 bulbs side by side on ball joint swivels. What do you think about it. Is there anyway to play with the wires at the receptacle in the kitchen, either connect them, or not conmnect them, to see what gives with the lights out back wrt this circuit?

[bent]

I forgot to add something about the outback light. The motion sensor has a blinking red light (to indicate when it has the sensitity enough to pick something out, or the range; to help aim it / set it up). Its blinking when I move around now, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a battery, or any need for a seperate power for just that, on just it. So I dunno. What to think about it, or its connection, if any to the receptacle.

[Chip C]

[Dave Martindale]

I have seen fuse boxes that have multi-fuse pullouts. You insert two fuses into the pullout part while it is removed from the fuse panel, and then plug it into the panel. For large loads (stove, dryer) the pullout uses cartridge fuses, but there are also pullout units that take two standard screw-base fuses. There's an interlock cover over the fuses so you can't actually unscrew either fuse until the whole pullout block is removed from the fuse panel.

With this arrangement, you can't voluntarily deactivate half of the circuit by unscrewing one fuse; you have to pull the pullout block which always deactivates both sides of the circuit. That provides one of the functions of the two-pole circuit breaker. However, if one fuse blows due to an overload, the other side of the circuit remains live until you manually disconnect it - unlike the circuit breaker which disconnects both sides on trip.

It seems this is a fundamental limitation of using fuses on 2-pole or

3-pole circuits, instead of a multi-pole breaker or a contactor with overcurrent devices wired in series.

Anyway, I have seen these, but I don't know if they meet code now. I haven't lived any place with fuses for a while now.

Dave

[Dave Martindale]

If the motion sensor has a LED that lights, it is getting power. If the LED flashes in response to people moving in front of it, the motion detector part of it is working. If the lights don't come on at night, then

1) the bulbs are burned out, or 2) the bulbs have poor contact in the socket, or 3) the photocell that disables the lights during the day is broken, or 4) the triac or relay that switches power to the lamps is broken.

To eliminate (1), remove the lamps and try them in another socket. If they work, look in the socket and clean if necessary (after turning off power to that circuit!). To check (3), switch the motion sensor to "test" mode so it will light the lamps during the day. If they come on, it's the photocell circuitry that's dead. If test mode doesn't bring on the lamps, you have problem (4).

I just replaced a motion detector a few weeks ago due to a dead photocell. That one worked when it was dry, but not when it was rainy and humid for a few days.

Dave

[bent]

thank you. I wonder if that unit is replacable for my unit - it looks pretty basic (don't know what these are worth). It actually worked fine the next night, but at the time I noticed a potential problem, I was really working to try and activate it. And I am constantly aggravated by not being able to turn and keep the thing on at night, without having to walk around after a few minutes. I read the manual, but by the time I get around to needing it, I can't rmember what to do to get it to stay on.