Flight MH370 disaster - new theory (asphyxia - air problems)

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On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 5:37:40 PM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Here's another example of the incompetence of the media snd/or those investigating:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/11/malaysia-airlines-investigation/6282557/
This is USA Today reporting 3 1/2 days after the crash. Look at the map. They show contact with the plane lost at 2:40AM in the middle of the waters between Malaysia and Vietnam. Yet we've known for days now that in fact the ATC contact was lost with the plane in that position at 1:20AM, 40 mins after it took off, not 2 hours. And if was flying for 2 hours, it would have to be going in circles to still be at that point. The point they are showing on the map is exactly where it was supposed to be at 1:40 AM and that's where the ATC data ends. The military says it has some evidence that the plane turned around and went back across Malaysia, but even if they're right, the USA map is BS given the time and location shown.
Oh and did you see the pics of the two Iranians? Yesterday the Malaysian officials involved in the investigation said "one or both" (their words, not mine), of the guys looked like Mario Barotelli, an Italian soccer star. Two things. First you'd think they would know if it is indeed one or both. And second, if you look at his pic, his black as coal and has a mohawk haircut. Finally they've released pics of the two and neither looks anything like Barotelli. I understand they are refusing international help, like NTSB, other law enforcement at this point too, refusing to let them be part of the investigation until they find the plane.
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I'm see them going to voice mail immediately if off or out of range. If the batteries die,, that should end th ringing.
Greg
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On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:46:03 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:

Cell phones don't behave any differently when off then they do when the battery is dead. And as I reported earlier, if I dial my cell phone from another phone, I hear it ring 5 times before going to voice mail if the phone is on. If it's off or the battery is dead, then I only hear it ring 1.5 times when I've called it. Some cell phones I've called in the past, if the phone wasn't there, it would either behave similar to the above, would go straight into voicemail without me hearing a ringing sound, or I'd get some kind of "not in service" message.
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

I just checked and mine just goes to voice mail when it is turned off and it did indeed "ring" at my end. I don't care enough to find out what happens underwater (grin)
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<stuff snipped>

Were you in Malaysia when you turned it off? (-:
I am surprised so many people believe that cell phones work exactly the same all over the world or that there's plenty of cell tower coverage in the waters off the coast of Vietnam.
http://www.rebelfone.com/category/flag/coverage-map-vietnam.gif
So the red herrings are beginning to multiply. Soon we'll have a whole school of them.
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Bobby G.





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On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:15:59 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

I don't see anyone saying cell phones work exactly the same all over the world. But don't you think that people that have been using them in Malaysia, China, etc know how they behave there? That includes some Malaysian Airline officials. They appear to be saying that the cell phones are ringing like they are on and in cell phone service. Can't you tell the difference on your phone?

If there is no cell phone service in an area the phone is in or the phone is off, and you call it, what happens in your experience? You can't tell the difference? The phone just rings the same? With all the phones I've had, all the places I've used them, I could tell a difference between how they behave when called when the phone was off or on. The phone I have right now, if it's on and I call it, I hear it ring 5 times, if it's not on it goes to voicemail in 1.5 rings. I think that is what the people over there are saying. There could be reasons, like everything else in this story it could be misreported, etc, but I don't see why it should be dismissed as nonsense because it's consistent with my experience.
And it could be consistent with the other evidence too. They are still searching boths sides and across the middle of Malaysia, no? If crashed over land there is some chance some phones could have survived. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that's likely, but neither do I think what the people are saying is completely nuts.
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<stuff snipped>

There's a pretty strong implication that you can read something out of the scattered reports of grief-stricken people that some phones - probably from a number of different carriers - are behaving oddly. Possible reasons - journalists trying to hack them like the Murdoch newspapers in England did - government agencies tracking them in case terrorism was involved - grief stricken relatives dialing the wrong numbers - the possibilities are so endless that to read something from them seems to really be grasping at straws. If China's involved, you can bet someone's watching those phones for anything that might involve terrorism.
If someone (like a journo trying to crack voicemail) was repeatedly dialing a lost cell phone, isn't it possible that would affect what someone calling in at the same time hears? So many possibilities other than "the phones are still on - somewhere." I suppose the wish is that the plane is hijacked and we'll get a ransom note one of these days but Occam's razor says: "Watery grave" the most likely explanation.
A more newsworthy item would be a person who actually *talked* to a passenger - not gotten what they believe to be an odd response from a phone that's probably a few hundred feet over water. The phone "rang funny" just doesn't seem to me to be indicative of anything, especially on phones that have been transported from country to country.

Flights between countries with roaming and all sorts of odd cell phone handoffs would lead me to believe that this is a cellular network issue, a not an indication that anyone's still alive.

Dude, my confidence in ANY sort of Malaysian official is probably at an all time low. (-:

I haven't dropped it in the ocean yet, where I am 80% confident that's where the MH370 phones are. The other 20% is reserved for crashing on land somewhere. If you believe the searchers, the crash site can't be in the water. I don't remember what crash it was, but I do remember some plane getting so thoroughly buried under silt it was nearly impossible to see from the air.

Your experience in America with a total of what, three carriers? These systems are infinitely configurable. With the government and press both likely to be snooping those numbers and the roaming issues, odd phone behavior is dispostive of nothing, at least in my mind.

I don't think it likely either and I think it shows that when people are starved for information about their probably deceased love ones, they will grasp at any straw left to them. It's more a concern that these people are giving themselves false hope. It would be worse if it turns out to be the fault of snoops ringing those phones and trying to hack into their voicemail systems. Given everything we know about the Chinese government and the press, that's the most likely explanation of oddball ringing. I guess a little false hope might soften the eventual blow the relatives of the passengers will face.
As you've pointed out before, we've not got the world's "best and brightest - or most truthful" working on the problem. I also read, I think in BusinessWeek, that it would cost $300M per airline to build real-time black box transmissions through a satelite link. Not gonna happen given how few of these they drop that turn into mysteries. The bottom line is that a 777 is a big honkin' thing and while one might go missing for a while, it can't *stay* missing.
Even when we have video of the crash, like TWA 800, the puzzle can be very hard to solve. I saw video that sure as hell looked like a missile but I also saw the reassembled wreckage that didn't support a missile strike. I can easily see a president, R or D, deciding to conceal a terrorist attack to prevent widespread panic. Not sure it happened there, but there's enough meat to feed a small army of conspiracy theorists.
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Bobby G.



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On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 18:46:52 -0400, "Robert Green"

will definitely be GSM, not TDMA or CDMA. ( yes, GSM is starting to become more common in the USA,but it is not the standard, as it is virtually everywhere else in the world)
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versa. Complicating things, there are 4 frequencies for GSM - only 2 of which are used in North America, and the other two almost universal elsewhere, so you need a "quad band" world phone for extensive travel. My daughter had a 3 band GSM and was able to use it in large urban centers in Rwanda, but not in the outlying aread which used the 4th frequency.
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<stuff snipped>

Then there's that, too. One thing AHR has taught me is that what I know to be "commonplace and customary" here in DC ain't that way across the nation or the world. Houses without basements are unusual to my way of thinking but standard in plenty of places.
There are at least 10 carriers that might have provided cell phone service to those passengers that I could find. Maybe more. I am sure the don't all behave the same way. I am also sure those numbers are under watch by the PLA, assorted journalists and hackers and God knows who else since the crash. I just can't put much weight to the fact that the telephones seem to be ringing "oddly."
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On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:39:52 AM UTC-4, Kurt Ullman wrote:

But how many times did you hear it ring before going to voicemail when:
A - The cell phone was turned off
B - The cell phone was on.
Mine you can tell the difference. It rings 1.5 times when off, but 5 times when it's on. I think it's that kind of behavior that the friends/families were talking about, but again from the reporting who knows. They made it sound like it just keeps ringing, which is odd, because almost everyone has voicemail that it would go to today if the phone were still on and no one answered.
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On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 06:44:06 -0700 (PDT), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Try it when you are reporting as "roaming" in SE Asia, then get back to us.
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On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55:25 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

You're not roaming anywhere when your phone is off. That's precisely the point. A cell phone is only roaming and known to the network when it's on. And the folks over there are saying that the phones were acting like those cell phones were in contact with cell phone service. There is a difference here in how a cell phone behaves when dialed depending on whether it's on and in contact with cell service or turned off. I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that people over there could be saying the same thing.
I mean there could be other explanations for it, but you seem to be denying that the typical thing is for those calling cell phones to notice a difference in what happens when the phone is on and in cell phone service area and when it's off/not in contact.
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<stuff snipped>

Indeed. There are just so many legit explanations for why they might still seem to be ringing that it's sad to see people reading anything into ring counts on phone systems a world away.
The only roaming those phones are doing now is if they are in the bellies of sharks consuming the remains of the passengers. T4 asked if this could get any worse and I'm thinking - finding half eaten remains - that could be worse. We have a number of different countries with a number of different languages and that has contributed to a spotty search effort.
I remember the "con" job DC police pulled when they made a big show of looking for Rep. Gary Condit's dead GF in Rock Creek Park. They drove up a bus of academy cadets, set them to searching while the news cameras were there and as soon as the news crews left, they called them back and went home. Quite some time later (a year?) a guy walking his dog found her body just off the trail but forensics was almost impossible because of the state of decomp. Can't remember her name - want to say Monica Lewinsky but no - wait - Chondra Levy. The tragedy is that if people thought the area was unsearched, civilians might have discovered her body in time to exonerate Condit, whose political career died with her. The law says "innocent until proven guilty" but the reality is that for many it's "innocent until accused."
While I doubt anyone would have been saved by a quicker search effort in Malaysia, it's a reminder it's a very big world out there and there's an enormous amount of debris bobbing about in the ocean.
I think Trader nailed it when he pointed out they lost the only piece of wreckage that clearly looked like it was from a jet very early on. I'll bet that's where the rest of the plane is and for some reason it went down largely intact. If the fuselage was intact, the doors could easily pop open from the increased pressure as the cabin deformed upon impact. They should have put a radio buoy or even a regular one at the spot or recorded the GPS location but I am betting they fly chickens around in those planes when they're not using them for air/sea rescue.
Someone pointed out that Sully's plane sank very quickly and all in one piece after his water landing. I would expect to have seen life rafts if the pilots had managed a night time water landing without instrumentation, engine power or both. But you never know. And collectively we may never know if the voice recorders failed or can't be found. Every generation needs a Flying Dutchman or Judge Crater or Amelia Earhardt story. Maybe this is going to be the latest of its kind.
My current conclusion is still that it flew apart from structural issues (the US spy sats didn't see a midair explosion). Its wing had been previously repaired after a wingtip collision, Boeing just sent out a repair bulletin on large cracks in the fuselage appearing in other 777's and not a peep was heard from them ever again right after what was essentially their first turn at high altitude.
One thing that bothers me about my own scenario is that the waters they flew over are said to be fairly well populated by fishing boats and gas drilling rigs. Someone should have noticed something. Another person postulated that the lost both engines and were trying to restart them by "windmilling" them back to life in a high speed dive and are rammed nose first in deep silt somewhere. The information about the AF crash reveals the ocean comes up awfully fast at night when your instruments are bad.
The AF crash was one of three recent crashes over water caused by faulty airspeed indicators. I guess having three different pitot sensors isn't really redundant enough. Scary thought. Probably need a completely different sensing mechanism, like a lithium powered GPS system like the one in my $45 TomTom GPS that nags me about my speeding.
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Bobby G.




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On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:21:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

The people reading into the ring counts should aren't here, they are in Malaysia and China. Unless you have some bias against Asians, there is no reason to think they don't know how sell phones behave over there. But there are some here who don't, because I've heard several here now incredulous that there could be any difference in how you here a cell phone ring when you call it and it's on and in contact, versus when it's turned off.

Obviously you don't know that, because as of now, no one knows where the plane is. It could be in a jungle.
T4 asked if this could get

I doubt language has much to do with it at all. Vietnam for example has said the Malaysian military has hardly contacted them at all.

Boeing said today that plane was not subject to the notice.

It appears there is a good chance China satellite has found the wreckage. Check the latest news. As usual more confusion as to where. They are saying it's 140 miles northeast of the last contact, but by long/lat I saw, it's souteast. In any case it's about 140 miles from last contact, at least that's where it was Sunday.... Wonder what the currents are there, could it have floated there from the last contact spot, etc.
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On 3/12/2014 9:45 PM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote: (And,I know how to snip....)

Does air plane debris float around? I'd expect most of it to sink immediately.
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On 03/13/2014 08:18 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I'd expect the flotation device under each seat to float. ;-)
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If there isn't an ass belted on top of it
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On 3/13/2014 8:10 PM, 0ren wrote:

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Oren wrote:

Jet fuel.
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