On Tuesday, March 11, 2014 5:37:40 PM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Here's another example of the incompetence of the media snd/or
This is USA Today reporting 3 1/2 days after the crash. Look
at the map. They show contact with the plane lost at 2:40AM
in the middle of the waters between Malaysia and Vietnam.
Yet we've known for days now that in fact the ATC contact was
lost with the plane in that position at 1:20AM, 40 mins after
it took off, not 2 hours. And if was flying for 2 hours, it would
have to be going in circles to still be at that point. The point they
are showing on the map is exactly where it was supposed to be
at 1:40 AM and that's where the ATC data ends. The military
says it has some evidence that the plane turned around and
went back across Malaysia, but even if they're right, the USA
map is BS given the time and location shown.
Oh and did you see the pics of the two Iranians? Yesterday
the Malaysian officials involved in the investigation said
"one or both" (their words, not mine), of the guys looked
like Mario Barotelli, an Italian soccer star. Two things.
First you'd think they would know if it is indeed one or both.
And second, if you look at his pic, his black as coal and has
a mohawk haircut. Finally they've released pics of the two
and neither looks anything like Barotelli. I understand they
are refusing international help, like NTSB, other law enforcement
at this point too, refusing to let them be part of the
investigation until they find the plane.
On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:46:03 AM UTC-4, Gz wrote:
Cell phones don't behave any differently when off then they do when
the battery is dead. And as I reported earlier, if I dial my cell
phone from another phone, I hear it ring 5 times before going to voice
mail if the phone is on. If it's off or the battery is dead, then
I only hear it ring 1.5 times when I've called it. Some cell phones
I've called in the past, if the phone wasn't there, it would either
behave similar to the above, would go straight into voicemail without
me hearing a ringing sound, or I'd get some kind of "not in service"
Were you in Malaysia when you turned it off? (-:
I am surprised so many people believe that cell phones work exactly the same
all over the world or that there's plenty of cell tower coverage in the
waters off the coast of Vietnam.
So the red herrings are beginning to multiply. Soon we'll have a whole
school of them.
On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:15:59 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
I don't see anyone saying cell phones work exactly the same all over
the world. But don't you think that people that have been using them
in Malaysia, China, etc know how they behave there? That includes some
Malaysian Airline officials. They appear to be saying that the cell
phones are ringing like they are on and in cell phone service. Can't
you tell the difference on your phone?
If there is no cell phone service in an area the phone is in or
the phone is off, and you call it, what happens in
your experience? You can't tell the difference? The phone just
rings the same? With all the phones I've had, all the places I've
used them, I could tell a difference between how they behave when
called when the phone was off or on. The phone I have right now,
if it's on and I call it, I hear it ring 5 times, if it's not on
it goes to voicemail in 1.5 rings. I think that is what the people
over there are saying. There could be reasons, like everything else
in this story it could be misreported, etc, but I don't see why it
should be dismissed as nonsense because it's consistent with my
And it could be consistent with the other evidence too. They are
still searching boths sides and across the middle of Malaysia, no?
If crashed over land there is some chance some phones could have
survived. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that's likely, but
neither do I think what the people are saying is completely nuts.
There's a pretty strong implication that you can read something out of the
scattered reports of grief-stricken people that some phones - probably from
a number of different carriers - are behaving oddly. Possible reasons -
journalists trying to hack them like the Murdoch newspapers in England did -
government agencies tracking them in case terrorism was involved - grief
stricken relatives dialing the wrong numbers - the possibilities are so
endless that to read something from them seems to really be grasping at
straws. If China's involved, you can bet someone's watching those phones
for anything that might involve terrorism.
If someone (like a journo trying to crack voicemail) was repeatedly dialing
a lost cell phone, isn't it possible that would affect what someone calling
in at the same time hears? So many possibilities other than "the phones are
still on - somewhere." I suppose the wish is that the plane is hijacked and
we'll get a ransom note one of these days but Occam's razor says: "Watery
grave" the most likely explanation.
A more newsworthy item would be a person who actually *talked* to a
passenger - not gotten what they believe to be an odd response from a phone
that's probably a few hundred feet over water. The phone "rang funny" just
doesn't seem to me to be indicative of anything, especially on phones that
have been transported from country to country.
Flights between countries with roaming and all sorts of odd cell phone
handoffs would lead me to believe that this is a cellular network issue, a
not an indication that anyone's still alive.
that the cell
Dude, my confidence in ANY sort of Malaysian official is probably at an all
time low. (-:
I haven't dropped it in the ocean yet, where I am 80% confident that's where
the MH370 phones are. The other 20% is reserved for crashing on land
somewhere. If you believe the searchers, the crash site can't be in the
water. I don't remember what crash it was, but I do remember some plane
getting so thoroughly buried under silt it was nearly impossible to see from
Your experience in America with a total of what, three carriers? These
systems are infinitely configurable. With the government and press both
likely to be snooping those numbers and the roaming issues, odd phone
behavior is dispostive of nothing, at least in my mind.
I don't think it likely either and I think it shows that when people are
starved for information about their probably deceased love ones, they will
grasp at any straw left to them. It's more a concern that these people are
giving themselves false hope. It would be worse if it turns out to be the
fault of snoops ringing those phones and trying to hack into their voicemail
systems. Given everything we know about the Chinese government and the
press, that's the most likely explanation of oddball ringing. I guess a
little false hope might soften the eventual blow the relatives of the
passengers will face.
As you've pointed out before, we've not got the world's "best and
brightest - or most truthful" working on the problem. I also read, I think
in BusinessWeek, that it would cost $300M per airline to build real-time
black box transmissions through a satelite link. Not gonna happen given how
few of these they drop that turn into mysteries. The bottom line is that a
777 is a big honkin' thing and while one might go missing for a while, it
can't *stay* missing.
Even when we have video of the crash, like TWA 800, the puzzle can be very
hard to solve. I saw video that sure as hell looked like a missile but I
also saw the reassembled wreckage that didn't support a missile strike. I
can easily see a president, R or D, deciding to conceal a terrorist attack
to prevent widespread panic. Not sure it happened there, but there's enough
meat to feed a small army of conspiracy theorists.
On Wed, 12 Mar 2014 18:46:52 -0400, "Robert Green"
These phones will not be like your typical "american" phone. They
will definitely be GSM, not TDMA or CDMA. ( yes, GSM is starting to
become more common in the USA,but it is not the standard, as it is
virtually everywhere else in the world)
GSM phomes generally do not work on tdma/cdma systems, and vise
versa. Complicating things, there are 4 frequencies for GSM - only 2
of which are used in North America, and the other two almost universal
elsewhere, so you need a "quad band" world phone for extensive travel.
My daughter had a 3 band GSM and was able to use it in large urban
centers in Rwanda, but not in the outlying aread which used the 4th
Then there's that, too. One thing AHR has taught me is that what I know to
be "commonplace and customary" here in DC ain't that way across the nation
or the world. Houses without basements are unusual to my way of thinking
but standard in plenty of places.
There are at least 10 carriers that might have provided cell phone service
to those passengers that I could find. Maybe more. I am sure the don't all
behave the same way. I am also sure those numbers are under watch by the
PLA, assorted journalists and hackers and God knows who else since the
crash. I just can't put much weight to the fact that the telephones seem to
be ringing "oddly."
On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:39:52 AM UTC-4, Kurt Ullman wrote:
But how many times did you hear it ring before going to voicemail when:
A - The cell phone was turned off
B - The cell phone was on.
Mine you can tell the difference. It rings 1.5 times when off, but
5 times when it's on. I think it's that kind of behavior that the
friends/families were talking about, but again from the reporting
who knows. They made it sound like it just keeps ringing, which
is odd, because almost everyone has voicemail that it would go to
today if the phone were still on and no one answered.
On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:55:25 AM UTC-4, email@example.com wrote:
You're not roaming anywhere when your phone is off. That's precisely
the point. A cell phone is only roaming and known to the network
when it's on. And the folks over there are saying that the phones
were acting like those cell phones were in contact with cell phone service.
There is a difference here in how a cell phone behaves when dialed
depending on whether it's on and in contact with cell service or
turned off. I don't know why you find it so hard to believe that people
over there could be saying the same thing.
I mean there could be other explanations for it, but you seem to
be denying that the typical thing is for those calling cell
phones to notice a difference in what happens when the phone is on
and in cell phone service area and when it's off/not in contact.
Indeed. There are just so many legit explanations for why they might still
seem to be ringing that it's sad to see people reading anything into ring
counts on phone systems a world away.
The only roaming those phones are doing now is if they are in the bellies of
sharks consuming the remains of the passengers. T4 asked if this could get
any worse and I'm thinking - finding half eaten remains - that could be
worse. We have a number of different countries with a number of different
languages and that has contributed to a spotty search effort.
I remember the "con" job DC police pulled when they made a big show of
looking for Rep. Gary Condit's dead GF in Rock Creek Park. They drove up a
bus of academy cadets, set them to searching while the news cameras were
there and as soon as the news crews left, they called them back and went
home. Quite some time later (a year?) a guy walking his dog found her body
just off the trail but forensics was almost impossible because of the state
of decomp. Can't remember her name - want to say Monica Lewinsky but no -
wait - Chondra Levy. The tragedy is that if people thought the area was
unsearched, civilians might have discovered her body in time to exonerate
Condit, whose political career died with her. The law says "innocent until
proven guilty" but the reality is that for many it's "innocent until
While I doubt anyone would have been saved by a quicker search effort in
Malaysia, it's a reminder it's a very big world out there and there's an
enormous amount of debris bobbing about in the ocean.
I think Trader nailed it when he pointed out they lost the only piece of
wreckage that clearly looked like it was from a jet very early on. I'll bet
that's where the rest of the plane is and for some reason it went down
largely intact. If the fuselage was intact, the doors could easily pop open
from the increased pressure as the cabin deformed upon impact. They should
have put a radio buoy or even a regular one at the spot or recorded the GPS
location but I am betting they fly chickens around in those planes when
they're not using them for air/sea rescue.
Someone pointed out that Sully's plane sank very quickly and all in one
piece after his water landing. I would expect to have seen life rafts if
the pilots had managed a night time water landing without instrumentation,
engine power or both. But you never know. And collectively we may never
know if the voice recorders failed or can't be found. Every generation
needs a Flying Dutchman or Judge Crater or Amelia Earhardt story. Maybe
this is going to be the latest of its kind.
My current conclusion is still that it flew apart from structural issues
(the US spy sats didn't see a midair explosion). Its wing had been
previously repaired after a wingtip collision, Boeing just sent out a repair
bulletin on large cracks in the fuselage appearing in other 777's and not a
peep was heard from them ever again right after what was essentially their
first turn at high altitude.
One thing that bothers me about my own scenario is that the waters they flew
over are said to be fairly well populated by fishing boats and gas drilling
rigs. Someone should have noticed something. Another person postulated
that the lost both engines and were trying to restart them by "windmilling"
them back to life in a high speed dive and are rammed nose first in deep
silt somewhere. The information about the AF crash reveals the ocean comes
up awfully fast at night when your instruments are bad.
The AF crash was one of three recent crashes over water caused by faulty
airspeed indicators. I guess having three different pitot sensors isn't
really redundant enough. Scary thought. Probably need a completely
different sensing mechanism, like a lithium powered GPS system like the one
in my $45 TomTom GPS that nags me about my speeding.
On Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:21:12 PM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:
The people reading into the ring counts should aren't here, they are in
Malaysia and China. Unless you have some bias against Asians, there is
no reason to think they don't know how sell phones behave over there.
But there are some here who don't, because I've heard several here now
incredulous that there could be any difference in how you here a cell
phone ring when you call it and it's on and in contact, versus when it's
Obviously you don't know that, because as of now, no one knows
where the plane is. It could be in a jungle.
T4 asked if this could get
I doubt language has much to do with it at all. Vietnam for example has
said the Malaysian military has hardly contacted them at all.
Boeing said today that plane was not subject to the notice.
It appears there is a good chance China satellite has found the
wreckage. Check the latest news. As usual more confusion as to
where. They are saying it's 140 miles northeast of the last contact,
but by long/lat I saw, it's souteast. In any case it's about 140 miles
from last contact, at least that's where it was Sunday.... Wonder
what the currents are there, could it have floated there from the
last contact spot, etc.
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